Unit balance in unpromotes

[leaf]

Quote:This BST nonsense (as I'm sure you're thinking) is definitely not nonsense, and is one of the few ways that we can actually balance this god-forsaken game. It would be much too complicated to mess with it. So please spare us and yourself the trouble don't offer any solutions that alter the BST. Re-arranging stats however... do at your leisure.

Actually, I was aware of BSTs (I noticed that all units of a similar class, e.g. dk/adept/templar just had their stats shifted around a bit, with dark/axe users tending to have the best spreads for unpromo), although I didn't realize it was as standardized as it was. My suggestion was going to be to raise BST for light/anima/sword/lance users by a couple points (like, +2 for light/swords, and +1 for anima/lances), along with shifting some points around as necessary, which would probably necessitate some kind of workaround to prevent promos from getting out of hand. But, after reading yours' and speedy's posts, I think it could be done just by mixing around points rather than adding to them.

Quote:Dark/Axe users just have higher base pow and defensive stats is all, meaning that they invest less in order to cap a key stat (pow) and can use their remaining points in order to be fast or try to insight or w/e.

Very good point.

So, how about this: For sword/lance/light/anima users, we shift a bunch of points from their other stats into pow, reducing the need to spend points there when building them? If the points are missed from their original location, it makes no difference, since they just get recycled back there. If those stats would be better off somewhere else, they can then be assigned somewhere else by the player. The main issue would be a lower effective cap on whatever stats get deducted, which could cause an issue in promos, especially for lords.

For example, try this adept.

Adept [Defencive]
Stats at level 20
HP *[2/10%]: 36.00
POW *[4/20%]: 20.00
SKL [-1/0%]: 10.00
SPD *[2/10%]: 19.00
DEF [0/0%]: 17.00
RES [0/0%]: 9.00
LCK [-1/0%]: 8.00

A * indicates it's where I placed 2 ordinary stat points, since it may be confusing to read.

The changes here are:
POW +2
SKL -1
LCK -1

I think one of the main problems plaguing sword/lance/light/anima users is that the mt/hit difference between the weapon types is also reflected in their stats. The mt/hit difference already exists in the form of the weapons themselves, causing a double jeopardy for these units, to the point of many light and sword units being incapable of capping their pow. I suggest inverting this phenomenon: Instead of lance/anima users getting 1 point less pow than dark, they get 1 more. Likewise, for light, instead of 2 less, they get 2 more. This would finally let light cap its pow (and do so with a -nature, too!), which alone would go a long way to restoring some balance.

Templar [Defencive]
Stats at level 20
HP *[2/15%]: 38.00
POW *[6/15%]: 20.00
SKL [-2/0%]: 10.00
SPD *[2/10%]: 19.00
DEF [0/0%]: 16.00
RES [0/0%]: 10.00
LCK [-2/0%]: 7.00

+4 POW
-2 SKL
-2 LCK

These changes so far don't necessarily introduce new niches, which I would like to do, but it would need to be done carefully. E.g. these units would need more stat shuffling to be able to get 20 pow+spd while also surviving two of any physical, but which of them should be able to do that? Both? Just one? Should the other get a special niche like that, too? What should it be? It's a lot of questions that aren't easy to answer.

There's also the matter of what stats should be moved around. For instance, the adept and templar could run 20 spd and still tank physicals if just a single point was moved from res to def. We didn't touch speed at all, but it let the player shift another point while building, which is all they needed.

Admittedly, I dislike balance by homogenization. The difference between 34/18, 36/17, and 38/16 are all negligible, and with these adjustments, the only real incentive for picking one unit over another would be its weapon type. However, it at least opens up the option of using different weapon types to fulfill the same end goal, a goal that was previously dominated by axe/dark users.

I mentioned earlier that this could cause problems for promoted play. Taking away 2 luck from the templar means it will only have 27 luck at max (as missionary), and taking away more than 3 points from its base skill would prevent it from reaching 30 skill by any means (and taking away more than 2 would prevent it from reaching 30 skill as inquisitor). Promotion gains would have to be adjusted for sure, but there is also another source of variability in unit stats we can take advantage of to leave the promoted units untouched if we so desire: growths. Taking one point out of a base stat and putting it into a 5% growth results in no change for unpromos, but is +1 stat point in promos. The inverse is also true. With some careful adjusting, promo caps do not need to suffer from this.

Quote:What makes a unit good is their ability to accomplish the task you create them for. Other than that there is no one set standard for a good unit.

Agreed. Which is why I talk more about stat distributions. The DK's stat distribution lends it toward either dual tanking or single-sided tanking with pursuit. It has an excellent stat distribution for unpromo, letting it accomplish various desirable tasks. The monk, on the other hand, has stats situated primarily for being a dodge tank, which works in promo, but not unpromo. In this case, I would probably call it a lost cause for unpromo and just do the minimal tweaking to keep it in line with the new balance paradigm. Which stats would be adjusted here would then depend entirely upon its promo performance. It could end up with functionally more stats if its promotions needed it, or they could be functionally the same.

Quote:Honestly, unpromo is more balanced right now, seeing as you can use every unit to success despite the stat distribution. This is actually more of a pressing issue for promotes if you ask me but that's for another topic.

That's interesting. Could you elaborate on the issues with promo? Do you think that the promo issues could be resolved by playing with base stats like I've been suggesting here? Or is it a more complicated problem?

edit: And shortly after posting this, I'm not sure I even like the idea of inverting the direction of pow (i.e. giving lance/anima +2 pow, -2 other stats and sword/light +4 pow, -4 other stats). It's too much to try to patch up for promos, especially for the light and sword units. I do still think lv20 pow needs to be equalized for the weapon types, just not necessarily inverted.

[Falaflame]

(07-07-2014, 05:01 AM)leaf Wrote:

Quote:Honestly, unpromo is more balanced right now, seeing as you can use every unit to success despite the stat distribution. This is actually more of a pressing issue for promotes if you ask me but that's for another topic.

That's interesting. Could you elaborate on the issues with promo?

http://feto.feplanet.net/character/view/66858
http://feto.feplanet.net/character/view/94336
http://feto.feplanet.net/character/view/85089
http://feto.feplanet.net/character/view/87378
http://feto.feplanet.net/character/view/53462

And there you have it.

[Breadophile]

I don't think that does anything for him other than "forges are whack".

The big problems with this game deal with the fact that A. There's too much difference between a hit and a miss and B. The game isn't very deep and subsequently becomes boring as shit after about a month.

[Falaflame]

Quote:There's too much difference between a hit and a miss and B.

That's why I posted those links.

The first link I posted (the sniper) is absolutely necessary to get past the next 4 links to the behemoths I posted. Without it, you are a dead duck in the pond.

Edit: Oh, and those things are responsible for the sudden jump in popularity of Troubadour promotes (War Medic/Valkyrie/Holy Kn). Those previously seldom-used troubs are now spammed to death everywhere, simply because they're one of very few viable units that can actually get reliable hitrates on those things I posted.

[leaf]

Oh, is that what you were referring to? That the basic problem in promo is that survivability is easier to achieve by going dodgy than by building tank, while the inverse is true in unpromo? Making the weightings for how much one stat point is "worth" something like this:

Unpromo:
POW
HP/DEF/RES
SPD
SKL
LCK

Promo:
POW
SPD
SKL/LCK
HP
DEF/RES

More or less right? The cause of the discrepancy being that def and res operate on discrete values, with easily achieved breakpoints in unpromo, but more difficult in promo (especially with wrath and pursuit being flung around). Meanwhile, spd/skl/lck are much more fluid, as every point is guaranteed to contribute to your chances to land a hit or avoid one, and evasion scales better than hit with level.

This differential weighting of stat value seems to be the root of the balance problems. If the weightings were the same at promo and unpromo levels, it would be a lot easier to approach the problem (ideally there wouldn't be any weighting at all, but I don't see that happening ever). Since the unpromo stat balancing is intertwined with the promo stat balancing, it's near impossible to make a unit "good" at both promo and unpromo levels when the same stats are weighted differently.

This is starting to get a bit beyond the scope of this topic, but I think aiming to balance the stats themselves might be a better approach here before messing with stat distributions.

I think I'll make a new topic for it, since this discussion could get pretty involved.

edit: Actually, no I won't. Not yet anyway, since I don't have any potential solutions in mind yet. If someone else wants to, though, feel free.

[Speedchain]

I know you guys are way past this at this point, but i would like to point out that Templars can survive two max pow mages or two peg mages or a combination, while the Dark knight can't. You'd need to dump the rest of your points into speed and/or get nihil to survive pusuit mages, but you can do it. A generic Templar can only become a low pow (nihil) DT this way, but it's a build that does work and it has its own advantages. I know most players won't like/use it, but I have one and found it to be surprisingly usefull. A lorded templar can pull it off with more pow and without needing nihil to effectively avoid pursuits.

For me this is a reason to use a Templar over a Dark Knight, It's not meta, but it works and I like it.

[Nolan Kryptonite]

Pow dump isn't meta, but you hardly need 20 Pow in unpromo realistically since almost no one builds to survive 2 attacks in unpromo... it's infeasiable for most units as seen in this topic.

[Speedchain]

That is exactly why it works. While dancing you can easily bring them in range, because it would take 3 units to kill it and if anyone would do that they just put 3 units in range to kill a unit that you don't really need anymore and when you FS or counter you can use it to finish off most units that have been attacked by one of your stronger units.