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+--- Thread: Unit balance in unpromotes (/thread-379.html)
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Unit balance in unpromotes - leaf - 07-05-2014
I'm not going to try to access unit balance in promotes because I don't have enough experience there, but there are some pretty egregious balance issues in unpromotes.
To begin with, I think everyone is aware that dark, axes, and bows are the best weapon types, even before looking at unit stats. Axes and dark have the most power with negligible losses to hit and crit, while bows get range and bypass the weapon triangle. Now, just because certain weapons may be inherently better than others doesn't mean that the units that use them have to be, too. The problem is that they generally are.
I'm basically just going to go over all of the unit classes and discuss why they're outclassed. For the large majority of units, the problem comes down to their stat distributions/stat totals, and buffing these would bring those units well into line, without touching the weapons themselves.
Additionally, I'll be generally assuming that "bulky is better," since that seems to be the meta we see in unpromo. Not all of my builds will necessarily be optimal, but I'll try to keep things as sane as possible. If you know a build that gives a unit a defined and useful niche that I didn't mention, please tell me and I'll edit this as necessary.
---
For our first comparison, let's suppose we want a magic user that is effective at fighting physical units, but we don't really care about enemy magic (as long as it isn't one-shotted). Weapon triangle isn't a concern for magic vs physical, so intuitively dark would be the best choice for this.
Dark Kn. [Brute]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/5%]: 30.00
POW [2/15%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [2/20%]: 19.00
DEF [2/0%]: 20.00
RES [0/0%]: 6.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
In fact, this unit does this job strictly better than an adept.
Adept [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 28.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [2/20%]: 19.00
DEF [2/0%]: 19.00
RES [0/0%]: 9.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
Adept has to run bulky to avoid getting one-shotted by verrine, and it performs its job worse in every other respect. Worse hp and defense, same speed, and less damage. This unit can even be 2HKO'd by mithril lances/bows, while the DK can't be 2HKO'd by any physical outside of crits. It doesn't work as an offensive anti-physical unit at all.
Templar [Brute]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 28.00
POW [2/20%]: 19.00
SKL [0/0%]: 14.00
SPD [2/20%]: 19.00
DEF [2/0%]: 18.00
RES [0/0%]: 8.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
Templar does it even worse. Light units are incapable of hitting 20 pow, making them substantially weaker than dark, and this unit gets even less defense than an adept.
If we switch these units to glass cannon (the only +pow/+spd nature) for 20 speed, every one of them gets 2HKO'd by mithril bow/lance, including the DK, and the only way to not be is to lose either speed or power, defeating the point of glass cannon. Monk and mage do glass cannon slightly better (higher skill/luck), but the lack of survivability makes them more of a liability than anything.
Section summary: Here we see three magical units with a distinct tilt toward physical defense over magic defense, but the only one that's actually capable of building offensively while taking physical hits well is the dark user.
---
Next, let's suppose we want a magic user that's good against physicals, but we also want them to be fairly tanky against magic, as well.
Dark Kn. [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/5%]: 34.00
POW [2/15%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 10.00
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [0/0%]: 18.00
RES [2/20%]: 14.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
34/18/14 is a magical defense combination a number of units can hit, while also hitting 20 pow. 34/18 is a breakpoint for mithril axe/verrine, and 14 becomes 18 with a buff staff. Everyone's probably seen a DK like this at some point.
Adept [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 40.00
POW [2/15%]: 19.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [0/0%]: 17.00
RES [2/5%]: 12.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
The adept's poor stat distribution strikes again. The stats above are enough to survive two verrine while warded, but doing so causes it to miss out on 20 pow. If you want survivability, you sacrifice power. If you want power, you sacrifice survivability. Realistically, you would probably build this unit as a one-sided tank rather than a dual tank (e.g. 38 HP/20 pow/20 def/9 res, or 7 res with brute), but a DK would still do it better.
Templar [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/5%]: 34.00
POW [2/20%]: 19.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [0/10%]: 18.00
RES [2/5%]: 13.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
It's weak in terms of damage, but its stat distribution at least allows a dual tank build. Due to being light, it only needs 13 res for a ward buff to protect it from verrine 2HKOs. However, tornado plus any other mithril will be enough to 2HKO, even when warded.
Section summary: So, if these units don't make good one-sided tanks and also don't make good dual tanks, why run them? What do they bring to the table over a DK? In the templar's case, it has the utility of WTA against dark, but should that really be the sole reason to pick a unit? What's more, the templar's stats are heavily slanted toward physical defense, but dark magic hits res, making it somewhat counterproductive if you're picking it for that reason. If templar and adept had just a few more stat points somewhere (and if light units could hit 20 pow...), there might actually be a legitimate tradeoff for picking them.
---
Next, let's try anti-magic magic units.
Shaman [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/15%]: 40.00
POW [2/10%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [0/0%]: 11.00
DEF [0/0%]: 11.00
RES [2/15%]: 17.00
LCK [0/0%]: 10.00
Like how the DK hits 34/18/14, this unit can also become impossible to 2HKO by buffing it. 40/15 is a breakpoint, so it actually has a couple extra points to play with. Insofar as anti-magic goes, it's okay, but it'll largely be fighting against WTN and WTD. It could go for 18 res, but then it would miss out on either 20 pow or dual tank potential.
Mage [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [0/0%]: 10.00
RES [2/20%]: 19.00
LCK [0/0%]: 10.00
Supposing dark wasn't on every team, it could serve as a decent anti-magic unit. It fails as a dual tank, however. It is capable of achieving 40/11/15 defenses by shuffling around a few points, but 40/15 is no longer a breakpoint when you have WTD against dark, rendering it largely pointless. You could go for 40/11/16, but then you're at 19 power just like the adept.
Monk [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/0%]: 32.00
POW [2/20%]: 19.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [2/20%]: 20.00
DEF [0/0%]: 9.00
RES [0/0%]: 13.00
LCK [0/0%]: 12.00
Unlike the mage, this unit simply cannot dual tank at all. Its stat spread seems to suggest going speedy, and it can indeed hit 20 spd even with a -nature. Pursuit is also the only way you're going to put out decent damage as a light user. You could dump speed to hit up to 19 res, but it simply can't build to both pursuit and take magic hits, which holds it back a lot. You could also run offensive nature for more skill/luck in exchange for some def/res. I haven't done the calcs to tell if 13 res actually helps for anything that 11 doesn't.
Section summary: Once again, dark is the only unit type that seems to come with competent stats. The mage is screwed out of the ability to dual tank effectively by literally a single point of res, and if it used dark magic instead, it would actually be a considerably better unit. The monk just seems poorly equipped for unpromos, where dodge is often insufficient for survival, although having WTA over dark is a saving grace. Its problem is that it's supposed to counter darks, but can't build into doing anything useful while doing so.
---
Let's finally get on to physical units. Like how I started with magic units that were made to fight physicals, I'm going to start here with physical units that are meant to face magical ones.
Mystic [Scholar]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 32.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [2/20%]: 19.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [0/0%]: 6.00
RES [2/0%]: 20.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00
The premier pegmage killer, and probably one of the best units in the game. Could technically pursuit by going glass cannon, but it loses the ability to tank verrines then.
Assailant [Careful]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/15%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 13.00
SPD [2/20%]: 19.00
DEF [0/0%]: 7.00
RES [2/5%]: 18.00
LCK [0/0%]: 7.00
Axe user that pursuits and can take two verrines. Has the advantage of using well... axes, so while it can't hit from two range like the mystic can, it will hit slightly harder. The only bad thing I can say about it is it misses out on 20 spd.
Pikeman [Careful]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 13.00
SPD [2/20%]: 19.00
DEF [0/0%]: 6.00
RES [2/0%]: 18.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00
This is... basically the same unit as above, but with lances. It's pretty much strictly inferior due to the lower power. There is absolutely no reason to ever run this unit.
Warder [Scholar]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [2/20%]: 20.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [0/0%]: 6.00
RES [2/0%]: 19.00
LCK [0/0%]: 7.00
Forced into a wrath build due to the inability to hit both 20 pow and anything over 18 spd at the same time without use of glass cannon. It has a slightly higher hit/crit rate than the mystic, but doing it from one range with less power is not a worthwhile tradeoff in the least bit.
Section summary: These units seem to be a bit more competent at their job than the magic units trying to counter physical ones. Even the pikeman is at least viable, even if it is horribly outclassed.
---
Next, the same units, built as dual tanks.
Mystic [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [1/15%]: 40.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [2/5%]: 11.00
RES [1/0%]: 19.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00
Arguably a lot worse than the above mystic, it sacrifices a point of res and its ability to wrath for the ability to dual tank effectively while shielded. If only taking one verrine + one mithril axe (without buffs) is of concern, then one point of def can be moved to res.
Assailant [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/5%]: 36.00
POW [2/5%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 11.00
DEF [2/15%]: 14.00
RES [2/15%]: 20.00
LCK [0/0%]: 7.00
Surprisingly solid, I don't think the assailant needs much help at all compared to some of the other units out there. Its stats are all in the right places, and it gets the strongest weapon type to boot. If you wanted to go 34/14/18, you could even salvage 3 points for a nihil build.
Pikeman [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/10%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 11.00
DEF [2/20%]: 14.00
RES [2/10%]: 20.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00
Once again, the pikeman is horribly outclassed by the assailant. It has the same stat total, but because one of those points goes to luck instead of one that we're building for, it's effectively lower. As an aside, since this is the first time it has been relevant, 34/14 is also a breakpoint for surviving a killer bow crit, even if this unit can't take full advantage of shield due to using lances.
Warder [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [2/20%]: 14.00
RES [2/0%]: 19.00
LCK [0/0%]: 7.00
...I think this thing had a better niche as a wrath unit. It's completely outclassed in this role. On the plus side, it does get WTA over axes, which is more than the pikeman can say. You could run 13 def/20 res, if you value the res over surviving killer bow crits.
Section summary: Unlike their magical brethren, physical anti-magic units are certainly capable of building to do their job. The problem lies in how heavily the pikeman and warder get outclassed. They're using inferior weapons, so why do they share the same base stat totals, while suffering from inferior placement of those stats? With just a small boost to their base stat totals, they could establish a well-defined niche for themselves, but due to the way FETO is currently balanced, it just doesn't work.
---
Next up, physical anti-physical units.
Archer [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [2/20%]: 20.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [0/0%]: 11.00
RES [0/0%]: 10.00
LCK [0/0%]: 11.00
...lolwut. It may promote into one of the best units in the game, but it's pretty bad for unpromotes. ...at least compared to the mystic, anyway. It cannot survive two mithril axes without forsaking power (best it can do is 34 hp/17 def before dipping into pow), so you may as well just max skill for wrath or go glass cannon for pursuit. I guess it's not much of an anti-physical physical, is it?
Fighter [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/10%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [0/0%]: 11.00
DEF [2/20%]: 18.00
RES [2/10%]: 14.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
34/18/14. Yawn. Has the benefit of using axes, making it one of the best physical anti-physical foot units.
Soldier [Brute]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/0%]: 36.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 15.00
SPD [0/0%]: 11.00
DEF [2/20%]: 19.00
RES [0/0%]: 7.00
LCK [0/0%]: 11.00
Nope. Nope. NOPE. It can't dual tank at all, nor can it hit 20 def if it tries. Maybe you could say "screw defense" and wrath with it, but it uses lances, and there's no way for it to hit 20 spd for pursuit, either. There are already better units out there if you want physical wrath, and there are way better units out there if you want physical pursuit.
Mercenary [Brute]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 30.00
POW [2/20%]: 19.00
SKL [0/0%]: 15.00
SPD [2/20%]: 20.00
DEF [2/0%]: 13.00
RES [0/0%]: 7.00
LCK [0/0%]: 12.00
This is basically the physical version of a monk. It can't hit 20 power, uses the worst weapon type, but easily caps speed with a -nature. It stays alive by virtue of the fact that it carries WTA against axe users, so it'll be hard to hit... probably. Also like the monk, you could go with an offensive nature and trade up to 4 def for 4 luck, but I haven't done the math on whether or not that def is useful for anything. Unlike the monk, however, it doesn't even have the choice to build for max power while taking at least two hits from what it's supposed to counter in the first place; it hits 30 hp/19 pow/17 def for a defensive build, so it still gets 2HKO'd by any physical mithril.
Section summary: So, we have the archer, which is good as a glass cannon build and is saved by virtue of being an archer, and the fighter, which is the only def-oriented physical foot unit that gets access to competent stats. Soldier gets screwed by inferior weapon and inferior stats, and mercenary gets screwed by even more inferior weapon and even more inferior stats. Are we noticing a pattern yet?
---
The last of the offensive foot units, armors would all be fantastic units if some of them weren't screwed on stats. Control over the weapon triangle is a great thing, and even swords/lances is a strong combination.
Footman [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/10%]: 44.00
POW [2/5%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 14.00
SPD [0/0%]: 8.00
DEF [2/5%]: 22.00
RES [2/20%]: 13.00
LCK [0/0%]: 5.00
Axes and swords. An incredibly strong dual tank.
Guard [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/10%]: 44.00
POW [2/0%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [0/0%]: 8.00
DEF [2/10%]: 24.00
RES [2/20%]: 12.00
LCK [0/0%]: 6.00
Axes and lances. Unlike the above, two verrine can KO. You might want to just run 25/11, since it gets KO'd by magic anyway. Despite that, this unit is still very viable, and depending on team comp, may be better than a footman.
Knight [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/10%]: 44.00
POW [2/15%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 15.00
SPD [0/0%]: 8.00
DEF [2/0%]: 20.00
RES [2/15%]: 13.00
LCK [0/0%]: 6.00
Swords and lances. Terrible. It gets too much skill, so it completely wastes the potential of an armor. If it goes over 20 def, it loses either power, hp, or res, which is going to screw it over somehow. It just can't get everything it wants. To seal the deal, it can't put out damage like the other two can, since it doesn't have access to axes.
Section summary: How is it that even with armors, the non-axe units still get screwed over? It's a really disturbing trend, because with just some slightly shifted stats, the knight could have been a really good unit.
---
I suppose I'll segue into mounts with a section on healers now, although they aren't really part of my main point. I think healers are probably some of the most well balanced units in the game, actually.
Curate [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/10%]: 40.00
POW [2/0%]: 15.00
SKL [0/0%]: 14.00
SPD [0/5%]: 13.00
DEF [0/5%]: 15.00
RES [2/20%]: 15.00
LCK [0/0%]: 11.00
Cleric [Defencive]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 40.00
POW [1/0%]: 15.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [1/0%]: 15.00
DEF [2/20%]: 15.00
RES [0/0%]: 16.00
LCK [0/0%]: 11.00
Same basic goal with both of them: Survive using nihil and be able to give +4 buffs. Cleric just does it better, with additional resistance to pursuit. In fact, cleric can even hit 20 power at the expense of being a perfect dual tank to get access to +5 buffs (and stronger healing, of course). Despite all those apparent advantages the cleric has, a curate does have one sole niche that a cleric cannot ever hope to fulfill: It has 9 base con, 3 higher than the cleric.
Troubadour [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 40.00
POW [2/0%]: 15.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 14.00
DEF [2/5%]: 13.00
RES [0/15%]: 15.00
LCK [0/0%]: 13.00
Heaven Kn. [Defencive]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 40.00
POW [2/15%]: 15.00
SKL [0/0%]: 10.00
SPD [0/15%]: 22.00
DEF [0/0%]: 7.00
RES [0/0%]: 16.00
LCK [0/0%]: 13.00
The mounted versions of a healer. They trade the ability to dual tank in favor of being... mounted healers. I think the heaven knight might need a bit more incentive to be picked (I never see these things, ever), but other than that, fairly well balanced in the grand scope of things... probably.
Section summary: Besides the heaven knight, healers seem to be fine.
---
Okay, back to business. Mounts. Since I started with magic before, I'll start with peg mages here.
Lunar Kn. [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/10%]: 32.00
POW [2/10%]: 15.00
SKL [0/0%]: 10.00
SPD [2/20%]: 24.00
DEF [0/0%]: 8.00
RES [2/0%]: 17.00
LCK [0/0%]: 11.00
Pegs have a pretty nasty little problem. They're locked into low power, and rely on pursuit. So... whatever peg gets the strongest weapon has a huge advantage. Which is why we have lunar knights.
Gale Kn. [Defencive]
Stats at level 20
HP [1/10%]: 34.00
POW [2/15%]: 15.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [2/15%]: 24.00
DEF [0/0%]: 7.00
RES [1/0%]: 15.00
LCK [0/0%]: 12.00
The only other peg you will ever see. These stats are near identical to the lunar in terms of functionality, except it gets aurora'd easily. You could lower the speed to fix that and still probably get your pursuit, but its functional base stat total is still lower. And because it uses anima, it's innately weaker. There is literally no incentive to run this over a lunar knight, besides that it's anima.
Solar Kn. [Defencive]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/5%]: 34.00
POW [2/20%]: 15.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [2/15%]: 24.00
DEF [0/0%]: 7.00
RES [0/0%]: 13.00
LCK [0/0%]: 13.00
Lolar knight. It's been the brunt of many a joke, due to just how terrible it is. Like the pegs above it, it survives a mithril bow from full HP, and hits 15 pow and 24 spd. But, it's got the worst res of all and does the least damage because it uses light magic. The extra luck means it'll dodge a little better, but you could build a lunar to have higher luck, too. There's just no incentive to pick this, not even as a counter to dark.
Section summary: Pegs are just horribly balanced. Gale and solar need some kind of incentive for picking them over lunar, since there's nothing they do better right now.
---
Next up, physical mounts. Some of these are just so much better than others, it's ridiculous.
Wyv. Rider [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/10%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [2/10%]: 20.00
RES [2/20%]: 14.00
LCK [0/0%]: 7.00
Probably one of the best physical mounts in the game. Killer defense, axes, and with a ward it can't be 2HKO'd (well, almost; mithril bow + verrine/tornado or mithril bow + silver bow can kill it). It can also go 34/18/14 with 14 spd for nihil.
Wyv. Rider [Rogue]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 13.00
SPD [2/20%]: 20.00
DEF [2/0%]: 18.00
RES [0/0%]: 6.00
LCK [0/0%]: 7.00
Same unit, built as a tanky pursuiter to show its versatility. Note that it's still 2HKO proof on the physical side, excepting bows.
Wyv. Fighter [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 36.00
POW [2/10%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [2/10%]: 20.00
RES [2/20%]: 13.00
LCK [0/0%]: 7.00
Functionally identical to the wyvern rider, except it uses swords. Unlike most sword units, this one actually has good stats. Like the rider, it can also pull off a nearly identical pursuit build, which I won't be listing to avoid redundancy.
Raider [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/5%]: 36.00
POW [2/15%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [0/0%]: 11.00
DEF [2/0%]: 17.00
RES [2/20%]: 13.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00
Axe-wielding horse mounted unit. It can't 34/18/14, but 36/17/13 is the same breakpoint, so it's just as well. Solid unit, not much to say.
Cavalier [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/5%]: 40.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [0/0%]: 11.00
DEF [2/5%]: 16.00
RES [0/10%]: 11.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
Surprisingly, it somehow is able to dual tank with a ward buff, as it remarkably hits the 16 def necessary to protect it from mithril axes, something so many lance/anima users wish they could do. Other than that, though... it doesn't have much going for it. Lance users need something better than what axe users have, not "roughly equal." It can't even be a good glass cannon, since it only hits 19 speed.
Scout [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/0%]: 36.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [2/20%]: 19.00
RES [0/0%]: 8.00
LCK [0/0%]: 10.00
This unit is frankly, terrible. It can't dual tank at all, and its single-sided tanking is meh at best. It can't hit 20 pow/20 spd without a glass cannon nature, and since it uses swords, it has no damage output. What does this unit have over the other mounts, besides being a potential counter to axe users (which the wyvern fighter does better)?
Nomad [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/0%]: 36.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [2/20%]: 20.00
DEF [0/0%]: 11.00
RES [0/0%]: 10.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
Probably its best option. It can also be built as a physical tank, running 36 hp/14 spd/17 def instead of the above, which beats the archer for an anti-physical bow user. But, that causes it to lose most of its offensive potential, on one of the best first strike units in the game. Not much to comment on, since the only other unit competing for the same niche is...
Peg. Archer [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/20%]: 19.00
SKL [0/0%]: 13.00
SPD [2/20%]: 20.00
DEF [0/0%]: 8.00
RES [0/0%]: 13.00
LCK [0/0%]: 11.00
...unable to hit 20 power. You could run it with 14 spd/19 res for anti-magic, but whatever. So many units do that better that it has practically no niche left whatsoever.
Peg. Knight [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/0%]: 34.00
POW [2/20%]: 19.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [2/20%]: 20.00
DEF [0/0%]: 10.00
RES [0/0%]: 12.00
LCK [0/0%]: 11.00
No niche. At all. Hm, you say it can pursuit? Great. So can wyverns, and they can actually take a hit, and aren't plagued with 19 power. In a game where axes are already at the top of the totem pole, this simply doesn't bring anything to to the table that a wyvern rider or wyvern fighter can't do better.
Section summary: Wyvern rider is great. Wyvern fighter is surprisingly good, and is probably the single most viable sword user in the game. Raider is good. Cav is somehow decent, but still doesn't leave any incentive to pick it. Scout is garbage. Nomad actually has a good niche for itself. Peg archer is terrible. Peg knight is terrible. Any mount that isn't a wyvern, raider, or nomad needs some kind of buff to be worth using over other units.
---
And somehow, I'm finally done.
tl;dr: Dark and axe users aren't just better than other units because of their weapons. They generally have better stat spreads, too, which grossly skews the metagame, as well as the weapon triangle. If, in a later edition of FETO, most sword, lance, light, and anima users were to receive small buffs to their base stats, they could have actual legitimate reasons to be picked over their axe and dark brethren.
RE: Unit balance in prepromotes - Breadophile - 07-05-2014
Okay, this is bugging me like crazy. The word you're looking for is "unpromoted".
Seth and Marcus are prepromotes.
Roy and Sain are unpromoted.
Sorry. =[
Now, onto business. I have yet another solution to this that the devs are probably gonna knock down because they're jealous of my brilliance: raise the pow caps. Anything with anima/lances as it's strongest weapon type gets 21/31 pow. Light/swords as the most powerful gets 22/32 pow.
The exception is bows, which gets 28 pow regardless of where it falls in terms of weapon types.
Of course this includes stat adjustment that can reach said caps.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - leaf - 07-05-2014
...welp, fixed that.
Anyway, I'm not sure adjusting the POW caps is the way to do it. The problem is a more intrinsic imbalance in unit stats, where swords and light seem to get the absolute worst stat distributions for unpromotes, as a rule. It's not just pow that they're lacking, but rather that they lack build options. As long as swords and light remain bad, lances and anima will also remain bad due to having to worry about WTD against the other good weapon type, and I don't think every lance and anima user will have their build problems solved by injecting an extra stat point into their builds. Templar might do alright with a 3 stat point boost (due to lol19powcap currently), and wyvern fighter will love being fully on par with its axe brother (or actually, slightly better due to the higher hit/crit with swords and a more useful position in the weapon triangle), but most units would still need some help.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Falaflame - 07-05-2014
Solar Kns and Monks can still work. With optimum luck+speed investment and access to shimmer, it makes most DKs and even Shamans look like a joke.
What I build for is not for units to be 3HKO'd, but rather, to avoid getting one-shot (barring crits).
In which case, I like to use pursuit templars like this:
Templar [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/5%]: 34.00
POW [2/20%]: 19.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [2/15%]: 18.00
DEF [0/0%]: 16.00
RES [0/0%]: 10.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
"Haww but it doesn't have capped speed"
Two things.
1. It's still going to pursuit most things that have their speed dumped, and the units that it doesn't are merc/monk/nomad/scout/peg mages, which will mostly be running pursuit builds anyway.
2. It doesn't die to a killer anything. I mean sure, it may die to a magic crit, but I'm also taking into consideration tournament play, where there's no forges involved. There's no sharps your wrath mages will be playing with. Because of that, this build is actually viable.
Also, I'm going to stress that you don't need 20 speed to pursuit most things that are speed-dumped. 18 will do just fine, and that's under the condition that you survive any arctomes and pegsuits. The only real reason you absolutely need to run 20 speed is if you badly want to kill someone's nihil healer. Heck I'd go as far as say even 17 is OK, but i recommend packing some arctomes in your inventory, and hope you don't have WTD.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Breadophile - 07-05-2014
The fact that some things can work (though I doubt the legitimacy of the solar knight) doesn't mean they are balanced and shouldn't be changed.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Falaflame - 07-05-2014
That doesn't mean you should just ignore templar as a pursuiter and go straight to DK. But that's beside the point I was making.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - leaf - 07-05-2014
I would argue that 19 is the lowest "good" pursuit, and 18 barely skirts the edge of viability, failing to get a 2 wt pursuit against 13 spd units, which a number of speed-dumped units have.
That aside, what does that templar actually do that this dark knight can't do better?
Dark Kn. [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/5%]: 34.00
POW [2/15%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 10.00
SPD [2/20%]: 19.00
DEF [0/0%]: 18.00
RES [0/0%]: 8.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
Can 2 wt pursuit even against 13 spd. Survives two of any physical, barring crits. Has a whopping 3 more mt on everything it does. The only thing that templar has on it is a little better hit, and WTA against dark. Does that really seem balanced to you? That the templar's only reason for existence is WTA against dark, rather than any merit of its own? And what about the adept? What does it have going for it? Swords and light have a purpose, however skewed of one, in that they get WTA against the best weapon types in the game. What about the outclassed lance and anima users, though? They don't even have that.
It's not a matter of whether every unit is "viable." If you aren't concerned about maximizing your chances of winning, you could run any unit you please and do "okay" with it. The problem is that certain units are clearly better than others, and by a large margin at that. I'm not aiming to eradicate tiers here. I don't believe that's possible in any game. However, I do believe that unit balance could be a hell of a lot closer than it is right now.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Falaflame - 07-05-2014
The difference between that build and my templar's build is, that build has a legitimate chance of dying to a 20 pow verrine double aurora (with even slim worm equipped), and templar survives against a 20 pow tornado aurora (with reliable flash equipped).
If you're going to talk about maximizing your chances, having a better stat or weapon on one unit by one or two isn't going to help you win battles. Making a strong team wins battles. When making a strong team, you have to explore all of your options.
Example. Okay, I need a mounted physical unit. I already have an axe aurora user in assailant, so I should try using a wyvern sword and have it use counter! But I'm one mage short! I already have a pursuit Lunar Knight, so can a counter templar work?
Things like that. One can't just throw together a random set of units and expect to win a battle. A team has to have chemistry. That being said, I'd love to see you send a team consisting of mainly darks and axes (with a bow or two in between) against a well-balanced and built team and expect to win. Hint: You'll be in for a rough time.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - leaf - 07-06-2014
Quote:The difference between that build and my templar's build is, that build has a legitimate chance of dying to a 20 pow verrine double aurora (with even slim worm equipped), and templar survives against a 20 pow tornado aurora (with reliable flash equipped).Okay. Supposing that were a significant enough advantage that we would need to adjust the DK's build to match it (which I'm not convinced it is, but I won't get into that right now), we drop to the same speed as your templar and still can't be 2HKO'd by physical (this is huge) and still have 3 more mt. With your sole advantage being WTA against dark and... 7 more hit? Seriously, stop trying to argue that templar has a statistical advantage. It doesn't.
What's more, I'm not sure you understand what "for its own merit" means. When I say a unit should be usable "for its own merit," I mean that it should be able to do something that other units can't, independent of its weapon type. Supposing the weapon triangle didn't exist, and DK and templar got access to the same weapons, there would be no reason to ever pick templar over DK, because it has inherently weaker stats. The stat problem becomes compounded by the fact that different weapon types do exist, so now templar is stuck using a weapon with 2 less mt, with its only saving grace being hit and evade bonuses against dark. The problem with all of this is that while you might use a DK because it's a DK, you don't use a templar because it's a templar; you use a templar because light counters dark.
Quote:If you're going to talk about maximizing your chances, having a better stat or weapon on one unit by one or two isn't going to help you win battles. Making a strong team wins battles. When making a strong team, you have to explore all of your options.I could do without the teambuilding lecture, thanks.
Example. Okay, I need a mounted physical unit. I already have an axe aurora user in assailant, so I should try using a wyvern sword and have it use counter! But I'm one mage short! I already have a pursuit Lunar Knight, so can a counter templar work?
But let's see here... you mentioned wyvern fighter. I'm pretty sure I remember mentioning that wyvern fighter is a great unit in my initial analysis. Do you know why it's a great unit? Because it has stats in the right places. Most sword units don't, and obviously when I'm talking about sword units being bad, I'm not talking about the wyvern fighter.
Quote:Things like that. One can't just throw together a random set of units and expect to win a battle. A team has to have chemistry. That being said, I'd love to see you send a team consisting of mainly darks and axes (with a bow or two in between) against a well-balanced and built team and expect to win. Hint: You'll be in for a rough time.Oh I love me some ad hominen. Yes, because I'm arguing that non-axe/dark/bow users are weak comparatively means I have no idea how to build a team. Great argument.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Falaflame - 07-06-2014
(07-06-2014, 12:09 AM)leaf Wrote: Okay. Supposing that were a significant enough advantage that we would need to adjust the DK's build to match it (which I'm not convinced it is, but I won't get into that right now), we drop to the same speed as your templar and still can't be 2HKO'd by physical (this is huge) and still have 3 more mt. With your sole advantage being WTA against dark and... 7 more hit? Seriously, stop trying to argue that templar has a statistical advantage. It doesn't.
Okay, i'd love for you to point out anywhere in my post where I said Templar had a statistical advantage. Because I'm pretty sure nowhere in my post did I say Templars were better than DKs. They do pretty much the same job, destroy weapon users. Effectively, they're tied in my books, because the units they target either have Res dumped, or has minimum investment (so much as to not get ORKO'd by Verrine pursuit or aurora). Though, since light magic has more crit, they're better at pursuit sharping. But that's a different argument for a different day.
Quote:What's more, I'm not sure you understand what "for its own merit" means. When I say a unit should be usable "for its own merit," I mean that it should be able to do something that other units can't, independent of its weapon type. Supposing the weapon triangle didn't exist, and DK and templar got access to the same weapons, there would be no reason to ever pick templar over DK, because it has inherently weaker stats. The stat problem becomes compounded by the fact that different weapon types do exist, so now templar is stuck using a weapon with 2 less mt, with its only saving grace being hit and evade bonuses against dark. The problem with all of this is that while you might use a DK because it's a DK, you don't use a templar because it's a templar; you use a templar because light counters dark.
I use a templar, rather than a DK, because, maybe I already have a dark type on my team (such as a Lunar Kn) and I don't want to have a crippling weakness on my team to a certain type. I can make the same argument about a Templar. I want a DK on my team, because I already have a shimmer dodge tank Solar Kn.
As for both classes, they both have their roles. The metagame right now is pursuit. Both DK and Templar can used for this part, and they are both utilized well. DKs have full power, and templars can pull pursuit crits with divine sharps. But they can also be used as counter defense tanks. While DKs are better in this role, that doesn't necessarily mean templars are entirely useless. They still carve large holes in physicals that are designed to pursuit, because their defenses are inherently lower. 3 Mt disadvantage or not, their target still dies to the next hit by whatever unit you use. Because at a high level of play, almost no units will be ORKOable. Yes, there's a difference between the two, but more likely than not, the difference isn't so huge that it's the difference between you surviving or you dying. It's more than just "templars are just there so they have WTA against DKs".
Quote:I could do without the teambuilding lecture, thanks.
But let's see here... you mentioned wyvern fighter. I'm pretty sure I remember mentioning that wyvern fighter is a great unit in my initial analysis. Do you know why it's a great unit? Because it has stats in the right places. Most sword units don't, and obviously when I'm talking about sword units being bad, I'm not talking about the wyvern fighter.
I could do without being talked back to, thanks.
I mentioned Wyvern Fighter because it was merely an example of building teams. I never said Wyvern Fighter was a bad class. I could've done the whole Templar vs DK thing again, but that's been done to death already. Maybe I should've stuck with that.
Quote:Oh I love me some ad hominen. Yes, because I'm arguing that non-axe/dark/bow users are weak comparatively means I have no idea how to build a team. Great argument.That wasn't my main conflicting view there. My argument was, that Axe/Dark/Bows aren't so auto-win like some people make them out to be. I have teams myself that punish that type of gameplay. Speedy/Vaike - IX has /plenty/ of teams that are made to counter that type of play. My point is, there's never a fool-proof team. And as long as RNG exists in FETO, there never will be.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - leaf - 07-06-2014
(07-06-2014, 01:35 AM)Falaflame Wrote: Okay, i'd love for you to point out anywhere in my post where I said Templar had a statistical advantage.I worded that poorly. You implied that not getting one-rounded by mithril magic+aurora was something unique to templars. That is not a unique advantage.
Quote:Though, since light magic has more crit, they're better at pursuit sharping. But that's a different argument for a different day.Actually, that's the first thing you've mentioned that templar legitimately does better. I don't normally think about pursuit sharp, although that is a unique advantage it has.
Quote:I use a templar, rather than a DK, because, maybe I already have a dark type on my team (such as a Lunar Kn) and I don't want to have a crippling weakness on my team to a certain type. I can make the same argument about a Templar. I want a DK on my team, because I already have a shimmer dodge tank Solar Kn.In summary, you use a templar because it's light, not because it's a templar. Thank you for proving my point.
Quote:3 Mt disadvantage or not, their target still dies to the next hit by whatever unit you use. Because at a high level of play, almost no units will be ORKOable. Yes, there's a difference between the two, but more likely than not, the difference isn't so huge that it's the difference between you surviving or you dying. It's more than just "templars are just there so they have WTA against DKs".That mt difference matters when you start factoring in toys. You're not going to attack every unit on a first strike, and your opponent won't be able to heal every unit they have that's taken damage. Meaning, even under optimal conditions where you're the one first striking, damage from toys will still come into play.
Take a standard dual tank DK with 34/18/14 defenses and dumped speed. It takes 30 damage from pursuit verrine (19 spd here) and 26 from pursuit aura (if you have 18 spd, then only if the DK is holding a 1 or 2 wt). It takes 7 damage from reliable short bow (norms) or unforged hatchet (tournament). 7+30>34, and 7+26<34, meaning their DK needs to attack a reliable hatchet user to put itself in ORKO range for a templar, but anything will do for a DK. Speedy DK also "one-rounds" a 34/20/14 wyvern rider that's taken hatchet damage (and a 36/20/13 wyvern rider if it was a reliable hatchet). Given only a small amount of prior damage, speedy DK can "one-round," while speedy templar cannot, so I would not say that the mt difference doesn't matter. For the record, templar would do 28 damage against the dual tank DK if it had just one more point of mt, which would be a kill.
Quote:I mentioned Wyvern Fighter because it was merely an example of building teams. I never said Wyvern Fighter was a bad class. I could've done the whole Templar vs DK thing again, but that's been done to death already. Maybe I should've stuck with that.I didn't say that you said it was a bad class. But talking about wyvern fighter doesn't really do anything to refute my central point, which is most sword/light/lance/anima users don't have the stats to be worth picking for their own merit. Wyvern fighter is one of the few ones that do, so good for it. It doesn't need buffing. The others do.
Quote:That wasn't my main conflicting view there. My argument was, that Axe/Dark/Bows aren't so auto-win like some people make them out to be. I have teams myself that punish that type of gameplay. Speedy/Vaike - IX has /plenty/ of teams that are made to counter that type of play. My point is, there's never a fool-proof team. And as long as RNG exists in FETO, there never will be.But what does this have to do with unit balance? Sure, there's no such thing as a fool-proof team. Why would I claim otherwise? But what on earth does that have to do with axe and dark units being statistically better than lance/sword/anima/light users? Just because you need other unit types to not run into weapon triangle problems doesn't mean the units wielding those other weapon types are good.
Do you think the game is balanced right now? Do you really think that non-dark/axe/bow users don't need any help whatsoever? I was hoping for this topic to turn into a discussion about what units would need what stats and where to balance them, to give them a suitable niche beyond just the fact that they use a certain weapon type. What I was not looking for was to get sidetracked talking about how you need more than just axe/dark to have a balanced team, something I am painfully aware of.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Breadophile - 07-06-2014
(07-06-2014, 01:35 AM)Falaflame Wrote: Okay, i'd love for you to point out anywhere in my post where I said Templar had a statistical advantage.
I'm pretty sure you've just admitted that the Templar has no statistical advantage. That's a sign we should change them.
Quote: Because I'm pretty sure nowhere in my post did I say Templars were better than DKs.
Now I'm definitely sure. Seeing as how Leaf-san has made a very firm point that DKs are better... see above.
(07-06-2014, 12:09 AM)leaf Wrote: What's more, I'm not sure you understand what "for its own merit" means. When I say a unit should be usable "for its own merit," I mean that it should be able to do something that other units can't, independent of its weapon type.
All of my "so fucking this" posts.
Quote:I use a templar, rather than a DK, because, maybe I already have a dark type on my team (such as a Lunar Kn) and I don't want to have a crippling weakness on my team to a certain type. I can make the same argument about a Templar. I want a DK on my team, because I already have a shimmer dodge tank Solar Kn.
Quote:The problem with all of this is that while you might use a DK because it's a DK, you don't use a templar because it's a templar; you use a templar because light counters dark.
I believe you missed a significant part of this post, Fala. Do what leaf says and remove the weapon triangle. Now give me a reason other than some shitty 6 crit difference why I should ever use a templar over a DK. And don't give us another "they aren't worse in certain aspects so they can fight on equal footing" posts.
Quote:As for both classes, they both have their roles. The metagame right now is pursuit. Both DK and Templar can used for this part, and they are both utilized well. DKs have full power, and templars can pull pursuit crits with divine sharps. But they can also be used as counter defense tanks. While DKs are better in this role, that doesn't necessarily mean templars are entirely useless. They still carve large holes in physicals that are designed to pursuit, because their defenses are inherently lower. 3 Mt disadvantage or not, their target still dies to the next hit by whatever unit you use. Because at a high level of play, almost no units will be ORKOable. Yes, there's a difference between the two, but more likely than not, the difference isn't so huge that it's the difference between you surviving or you dying. It's more than just "templars are just there so they have WTA against DKs".
Since the last sentence ties everything you've just said together, let me address solely that. Ahem. It's exactly what you just said with the sole exception of, and I digress, some shitty 6 crit difference.
Quote:That wasn't my main conflicting view there. My argument was, that Axe/Dark/Bows aren't so auto-win like some people make them out to be. I have teams myself that punish that type of gameplay. Speedy/Vaike - IX has /plenty/ of teams that are made to counter that type of play. My point is, there's never a fool-proof team. And as long as RNG exists in FETO, there never will be.
Herein lies another problem. The fact that I can't make a team that can't be completely and utterly counterpicked by another somewhat common team. This is bad. There should not be some sort of team triangle. That's BAD. Very, very bad.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Fredmir - 07-06-2014
Disclaimer : I suck at loltiers =_=
Just saying something here, I'm lurking the topic a little bit and I didn't read everything.
My main problem here is that you're only looking at unpromo units, where Skill used in only some specific units (Bow users for critz) and where Luck is NEVER used, for good reasons, it's not doing anything at those low lvls, the difference it give is negligible and won't do anything.
However, units like Mercenaries and Monks are made to have higher luck to allow their promotions to use that stat and become dodgy units (it's a luck game, so it doesn't mean really something). Of course when you're at a lower lvl, your luck isn't giving you anything and the points that are there are 'wasted'.
So right now, some of those units that are 'problematics' at unpromo get some utilities in promo, I mean luck is always a part of the game, but those dark users who are supposed to be significantly better than the light users shouldn't be able to hit them.
Avoid is pretty much useless in unpromo, but is usable in promo (I love to use those units) so units made to promote and use avoid are doomed to be weaker in unpromo.
Of course, if you make them stronger, I wouldn't mind having my dodgy units getting some buffs, they'll just get more good points to use =D
(07-06-2014, 09:18 PM)Breadophile Wrote:Quote:That wasn't my main conflicting view there. My argument was, that Axe/Dark/Bows aren't so auto-win like some people make them out to be. I have teams myself that punish that type of gameplay. Speedy/Vaike - IX has /plenty/ of teams that are made to counter that type of play. My point is, there's never a fool-proof team. And as long as RNG exists in FETO, there never will be.
Herein lies another problem. The fact that I can't make a team that can't be completely and utterly counterpicked by another somewhat common team. This is bad. There should not be some sort of team triangle. That's BAD. Very, very bad.
No team triangle? I actually think the opposite, if you don't have a team triangle, then you have a team better than every others, what is the point in using the others then? If there is a ultimate non-counterable team, it's a god team and you'll never lose.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Breadophile - 07-07-2014
(07-06-2014, 11:49 PM)Fredmir Wrote:(07-06-2014, 09:18 PM)Breadophile Wrote: Herein lies another problem. The fact that I can't make a team that can't be completely and utterly counterpicked by another somewhat common team. This is bad. There should not be some sort of team triangle. That's BAD. Very, very bad.
No team triangle? I actually think the opposite, if you don't have a team triangle, then you have a team better than every others, what is the point in using the others then? If there is a ultimate non-counterable team, it's a god team and you'll never lose.
You're implying that there are only two solutions. I want something like Project M has. Every team is useful and can beat any other team with the right strategy.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - leaf - 07-07-2014
@Fred: You do bring up a valid point. Buffing a unit for unpromo would mean also buffing them for promo. I don't know enough about promos to accurately access the balance problems at that level, so some care would have to go into not breaking promos in the process.
If a unit is already in a really good spot in promos, but is weak in unpromo, you could theoretically buff their unpromo form and then dock points from their promotion bonuses, leaving the promo form in roughly the same spot that it is now. I'm not sure how many cases are like this, though, where a unit is behind the curve in unpromo but is ahead of the curve in promos.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Breadophile - 07-07-2014
(07-07-2014, 12:17 AM)leaf Wrote: @Fred: You do bring up a valid point. Buffing a unit for unpromo would mean also buffing them for promo. I don't know enough about promos to accurately access the balance problems at that level, so some care would have to go into not breaking promos in the process.
If a unit is already in a really good spot in promos, but is weak in unpromo, you could theoretically buff their unpromo form and then dock points from their promotion bonuses, leaving the promo form in roughly the same spot that it is now. I'm not sure how many cases are like this, though, where a unit is behind the curve in unpromo but is ahead of the curve in promos.
I'm not entirely sure if you mean to add stats (either to base forms or promotion bonuses) or to simply rearrange them. However, I feel like this is as good a time as any to explain something important.
All of the units in FETO can be divided into 4 groups by their BST (Base Stat Total). The BST is the sum of all 7 of the unit's stats at level 20 and level 20/20 (two different BSTs, obviously). HP if halved for this calculation.
I bolded that part to save you some trouble when you go to see that this checks out.
The four types are as follows: Clerics, Mounted, Armored, and... uh... Standard, I guess.
Standard is of course the standard. All units that are standard have the same BST (again, HP is halved for this calculation).
From this scale:
Clerics have +2 BST
Mounted have -2 BST (fliers are NOT considered mounted for this purpose; they are Standard)
Armored have +3 BST
A unit's grouping is decided by its unpromoted class. A sage promoted from mage has 2 less BST than a sage promoted from cleric. To balance that out all cleric promotions have a ton of forced RES and lower DEF.
Troubadours are technically Standard. They fall under both Clerics and Mounted, which cancel each other out.
This BST nonsense (as I'm sure you're thinking) is definitely not nonsense, and is one of the few ways that we can actually balance this god-forsaken game. It would be much too complicated to mess with it. So please spare us and yourself the trouble don't offer any solutions that alter the BST. Re-arranging stats however... do at your leisure.
PS: Changing the caps doesn't change the BST, which is why I proposed it even though it also feels like a very lopsided way to deal with this issue.
Edit: PPS: Mages (including clerics) originally had -2 BST, but this was changed in a balance patch way back when. Clerics have +2 BST in response to them being forced to endure staves all the way to promotion. It is rather unfitting at this point considering just how useful those units are.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Speedy - IX - 07-07-2014
(07-06-2014, 02:58 AM)leaf Wrote: But what on earth does that have to do with axe and dark units being statistically better than lance/sword/anima/light users? Just because you need other unit types to not run into weapon triangle problems doesn't mean the units wielding those other weapon types are good.
Do you think the game is balanced right now? Do you really think that non-dark/axe/bow users don't need any help whatsoever? I was hoping for this topic to turn into a discussion about what units would need what stats and where to balance them, to give them a suitable niche beyond just the fact that they use a certain weapon type. What I was not looking for was to get sidetracked talking about how you need more than just axe/dark to have a balanced team, something I am painfully aware of.
Dark/Axe users just have higher base pow and defensive stats is all, meaning that they invest less in order to cap a key stat (pow) and can use their remaining points in order to be fast or try to insight or w/e. They aren't hands down the best units seeing that acc is also a stat and they are generally locked to the wpns with the lowest hit rates in the game despite having such potential with their other stats. The stats are basically there to try to offset or counterbalance the low acc to an extent. I'm sure if there was no WTA in the game, things would be significantly different, seeing as unit balance like that would've been much more of an issue and would have been taken care of during the testing process.
What makes a unit good is their ability to accomplish the task you create them for. Other than that there is no one set standard for a good unit.
Example:
Cleric [Defencive]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 40.00
POW [1/0%]: 15.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 14.00
DEF [2/20%]: 15.00
RES [1/0%]: 17.00
LCK [0/0%]: 11.00
Nihil/Countora
Need da heals? Yes you do and you'll need them for the duration of the battle. This unit will do it well enough as it can survive three of any atk barring crits meaning that it can survive long enough to accomplish it's task.
Curates can get similar builds, Troubs and Heaven kns are a bit different, they aren't built to survive three hits, though they are mounted and have avd, so there goes a trade off.
Bad healers tend to be the ones that die more quickly than others (when healing is their only task).
Honestly, unpromo is more balanced right now, seeing as you can use every unit to success despite the stat distribution. This is actually more of a pressing issue for promotes if you ask me but that's for another topic.
@Kai
You're right in which things should be a bit more like P:M, but even then there will eventually be a rise in matchups (in which some characters WILL be counterpicks to others) as there are far too many different playable character styles. The same goes with FETO, any team or unit can be extremely counter-picked by someone, but then how does that counter-picked team fair against another well balanced team? I'll let the battle speak for itself.In a way you can't not have counter-picking, it's a strategy game and some units will counter others, removing that aspect removes the strategy. *and let's not instigate
@Leaf
I've also been wanting to give more units niches (in promotes) but sadly we are still a long ways off from that actually becoming a reality.
EDIT:
(07-07-2014, 12:17 AM)leaf Wrote: I'm not sure how many cases are like this, though, where a unit is behind the curve in unpromo but is ahead of the curve in promos.
Generally Good in Unpromo and bad in Promo?
All B.mages save for their mounted promotion option
Nomads
All Warders barring Mystic and its promotion to Valiant
Lunar Kn
Curates
Wyverns
All Armors
Other Way Around?
Archer -> Sniper
Troubs
Peg Archer -> Hawk Archer
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Breadophile - 07-07-2014
(07-07-2014, 12:58 AM)Vaike - IX Wrote: You're right in which things should be a bit more like P:M, but even then there will eventually be a rise in matchups (in which some characters WILL be counterpicks to others) as there are far too many different playable character styles. The same goes with FETO, any team or unit can be extremely counter-picked by someone, but then how does that counter-picked team fair against another well balanced team? I'll let the battle speak for itself.In a way you can't not have counter-picking, it's a strategy game and some units will counter others, removing that aspect removes the strategy. *and let's not instigate
Totes instigating. Some units should counter other units, sure. But teams should not counter other teams (that aren't completely mothertrucking retarded teams).
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Speedy - IX - 07-07-2014
(07-07-2014, 01:28 AM)Breadophile Wrote:(07-07-2014, 12:58 AM)Vaike - IX Wrote: You're right in which things should be a bit more like P:M, but even then there will eventually be a rise in matchups (in which some characters WILL be counterpicks to others) as there are far too many different playable character styles. The same goes with FETO, any team or unit can be extremely counter-picked by someone, but then how does that counter-picked team fair against another well balanced team? I'll let the battle speak for itself.In a way you can't not have counter-picking, it's a strategy game and some units will counter others, removing that aspect removes the strategy. *and let's not instigate
Totes instigating. Some units should counter other units, sure. But teams should not counter other teams (that aren't completely mothertrucking retarded teams).
Not possible to have both when teams will eventually come down to unit matchups.
RE: Unit balance in unpromotes - Breadophile - 07-07-2014
(07-07-2014, 01:39 AM)Vaike - IX Wrote:(07-07-2014, 01:28 AM)Breadophile Wrote: Totes instigating. Some units should counter other units, sure. But teams should not counter other teams (that aren't completely mothertrucking retarded teams).
Not possible to have both when teams will eventually come down to unit matchups.
at the end, yeah. But at the start... if blue unit A counters red unit B counters blue unit C counters red unit D counters blue unit A, then neither team is "better"
It's all strategy, or, it *should* be. But it's not. This is bad when the game is already luck-based as it is.