FETO Tournament Guidelines Discussion

[Falaflame]

(05-13-2015, 07:53 PM)Aless Wrote: Status is broken. No way around it.

This right here.

I'm for banning status entirely.

Keep the non-volatile status (such as Shimmer, Poison, Fimbulvetr), but everything else has to go.

[LeaderR Elliot]

Doesn't mean is broken either fred, if F34R was an insta 2 kill first strike you clearly playing the game wrong (not buying your restores, not having your own status staff as counter measure or punishing that kind of play) being victim to the staff is the victim fault.

Why the cost shouldn't be an argument? Costs-benefit relation, sure you can lower all stats 5 times wow, yes it might win you a battle here and there but won't last you the entire tourney and you won't be able to keep buying f34r without harming your units equipment.

[Falaflame]

Quote:Doesn't mean is broken either fred, if F34R was an insta 2 kill first strike you clearly playing the game wrong (not buying your restores, not having your own status staff as counter measure or punishing that kind of play) being victim to the staff is the victim fault.

Explain how being victim of the staff is the victim's fault. You can't defend against status staves. Sure, you have remedy staves, but that doesn't save you from being ORKO'd in the same turn as you get fear'd, or being rendered useless entirely by silence, or being crippled by seal, and getting sleeped in a 1KFS might as well be a 2KFS.

Another thing that makes Fear broken is its range. you have 13 range with that staff, 15 if mounted and 17 if mounted+hasted. You aren't safe anywhere. If status was 1-range, that'd be a different story, but as it is, you literally cannot be punished from using status staves. 1-range would still be broken, but at least you're not going to be pushed all the way to the wall faster than you can say "FETO" just because you see a shiny purple staff at the back of a staffer's inventory.

Quote:Why the cost shouldn't be an argument? Costs-benefit relation, sure you can lower all stats 5 times wow, yes it might win you a battle here and there but won't last you the entire tourney and you won't be able to keep buying f34r without harming your units equipment.

Lol... Look at the past 2 tournaments. Almost every single player who's gotten into at least semi-finals has used a fear staff. The proof is there. The results are there. Right. Here. Cost means nothing, especially if you're in the winner's bracket. As it stands, almost every tournament match in the later rounds is a race to who uses Fear first. This is not fun. This is not balanced. This is not how a tournament is supposed to be run.

At this point, I can't even call this an argument. You're basically justifying the use of a broken item. I mean, if that's the case, I might as well allow Lunar Weapons, HP Draining Weapons, Magic Weapons, and Elsleep staves into tournaments. Why not?

[Fredmir]

(05-14-2015, 11:36 PM)LeaderR Elliot Wrote: Doesn't mean is broken either fred, if F34R was an insta 2 kill first strike you clearly playing the game wrong (not buying your restores, not having your own status staff as counter measure or punishing that kind of play) being victim to the staff is the victim fault.

So it,s my fault for being totally outranged by a broken staff, and my fault that I couldn't counter it by USING IT?! that's the definition of Broken man. and I couldn't buy restore, remember? we didn't get any point. Having to Sell my S-ranks to counter your staff is again the definition of Broken, and even then, you can't restore a dead unit, you ORKO'ed the fear'd unit the same turn.

(05-14-2015, 11:36 PM)LeaderR Elliot Wrote: Why the cost shouldn't be an argument? Costs-benefit relation, sure you can lower all stats 5 times wow, yes it might win you a battle here and there but won't last you the entire tourney and you won't be able to keep buying f34r without harming your units equipment.

but but... IT DID! it lasted you the whole tourny! using 1 fear per battle is enough to put the battle in your favor, ok maybe 2 if the opponents is BETTER than you, which isn't the case with you. and after 4-5 battles, you get.. 4 x 2000 golds, which is CLEARLY enough to buy S-ranks + another fear.

+ everything that Fala said.

[Falaflame]

Fear doesnt even cost that much, really. It only barely costs more than your standard Rienfleche. It really should only take one tournament match to get another, maybe 2 if you're in the loser's brackets. At its worst, you're not using all 5 charges of fear in a single match, so again, why is cost even a factor?

[Nolan Kryptonite]

Fear is not that bad.

1) It doesn't outright kill the unit. As said before it weakens a unit so that another may possibly finish it off. At best it's a 2RKO. Like how you'd normally kill a unit.
2) Unlike the other status staves, it does not allow the user free reign to ignore that unit. That unit is still alive and (surprise surprise) still poses a threat whether it's healing or weakening units. 25 Pow is really not that terrible. Basically it makes the feared unit the prime target and if it doesn't get ORKOed after, you just used 3 units to kill 1.

[Fredmir]

(05-15-2015, 09:58 PM)Nolan Kryptonite Wrote: Fear is not that bad.

1) It doesn't outright kill the unit. As said before it weakens a unit so that another may possibly finish it off. At best it's a 2RKO.
2) Unlike the other status staves, it does not allow the user free reign to ignore that unit. That unit is still alive and (surprise surprise) still poses a threat whether it's healing or weakening units. 25 Pow is really not that terrible. Basically it makes the feared unit the prime target and if it doesn't get ORKOed after, you just used 3 units to kill 1.

You won't use fear on a Dual Tank, you'll use it on an offensive units (which will give you a higher hit% anyway) to make it ORKOable or even maybe OHKOable, and now you get a 2HKO with 0 counter-damage, pretty good, if I can do that twice, I'd take that FS anyday, and since the 1 or 2 fear users can be further away in the back and still be in range to fear, my units in front should be able to reach them, if they don't just apply some pressure and make him back up.

25 Power isn't the only thing, the loss in accuracy and avoid hurt a lot too, even more in that the units that are the more vulnarable to fear are glassy-dodgy units, you basically take everything away from them.

and a feared Pegmage with 20 power isn't even a threat anymore, you do what... 25 damages on low res units?

Fear isn't "that bad", but it's still bad, you can't just say "it's less broken than those, so it's ok!"

[Falaflame]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

You want to play with your winstick toys? Play a regular match.

The only thing new that I'll say is, don't expect them to be available in tournaments anymore, anytime soon.

[fensti]

Effective immediately, Fear is banned from tournaments.

At some point I would like to try and balance the status staves so that way they can be unbanned, just don't know when that will be happening. Feel free to discuss that in the thread about Staves so when the time comes if there is a solution we can try it out.

[Falaflame]

Good to know.

Meanwhile, I have one more thing to talk about.

http://feto.feplanet.net/map/45

I can't BELIEVE I overlooked this map. Why didn't we use this map for the team tournaments from the very beginning? lol.

[LeaderR Elliot]

(05-27-2015, 12:00 PM)fensti Wrote: Effective immediately, Fear is banned from tournaments.

At some point I would like to try and balance the status staves so that way they can be unbanned, just don't know when that will be happening. Feel free to discuss that in the thread about Staves so when the time comes if there is a solution we can try it out.

I won't question lack of reasoning for the ban since you are this site owner and stuff but I am gonna say this once.

Do not re-balance stuff just because since it affects regular battles. What you could do I create extra items, weaker items, this way you can use this stuff for your tournaments.

Is not worth changing stuff just because.

[Fredmir]

Elliot, staves are broken and everytime they are used, it's seen as a dick move.

They NEED to be rebalanced.

and LOL Lack of reasoning, no offense, but I think Fala and I gave plenty enough reasons that are valid, not counting other people that agreed, staves are broken and need to be banned, and it was said even before you joined that staves needed to be rebalanced.

[fensti]

All the reasons needed have been stated in a much more eloquent way than I could have so I saw no point in restating everything.

As for rebalancing, if they are rebalanced, they will be rebalanced for everything. Rebalancing can also include a reworking of the formula for staff accuracy as well as changes to the staves themselves.

[Fredmir]

http://feto.feplanet.net/battle/135517

yeah hum.... sorry about that, totally forgot I had picked this map as a joke and it ended up backfiring...

shouldn't be available

[fensti]

I reset that match so it should be good now. I'll remove that map the next time around.