[REPOST] Sweeping Changes to FETO

[Breadophile]

(08-02-2014, 03:38 AM)Speedy - IX Wrote: I've been trying lol and this is what I've came up with so far. Basically class abilities upon promotion, in order to help them with their respective niches.

Let's get some things out of the way first. The following paragraph is used multiple times to knock down some of these ideas.

You see Speeds, there's only a couple consistencies between the many possible feasible team combinations in FETO: all teams have magic, all teams have physical (and almost always at least one bow user), all teams have mounted (or suffer performance problems, which makes up for this), and in promoted, all teams have staves and unmounted.

Whatever bonuses you apply need to be usable in every battle (or almost every battle, such as in the case of fighting people with no mounted in promoteds; you are already at an advantage there). Otherwise it's just more random chance, albeit dependent on your opponent instead of the RNG.

Quote:Crusader - Lance Breaker: WTA2 vs Lance units
War Mage - Axe Breaker - ^ vs Axe units
Chaos Kn. - Sword Breaker - ^ vs Sword units

Helps all B.Mages become better physical unit slayers, dealing some extra damage and getting some extra acc...and not having seemingly pointless wta2 vs other mages which will generally slaughter them anyway.

As I said before, it's a little too random to give a bonus versus specific unit types. Make it a blanket thing, like... all battle mages receive WTA1 and maybe -5 hit to make it 1/10 instead of 1/15 against melee units.

What happens if your crusader goes up against a bunch of swordmasters and no lance users at all? It should get a bonus against those swordmasters too.

Quote:Footman - Gen - Sword Faire: +5mt to all swords
Knight -> Gen - Lance Faire: + lances
Guard -> Gen - Axe Faire: ^ axes
All Bow Gens Bowfaire ^ Bows

More attack power to compensate that abysmal mov of theirs?

I'm all for more attack power, but... as above, the armors should just receive a bonus to hitting bow units to make them supreme physical killers. Give them unapposed WTA2/3 (meaning the bow users don't get WTD, though it doesn't really matter against a general) instead.

Quote:Curate Promotions (and clairvoyant) - > Healtouch - +5 to all healing staves +1 to all buffs +1range on all staves

Let's be honest here, they lack offensive stats in general compared to all other healers (mainly due to how well spread out they are in the bst). So why not make them more competent healers?

10/10 would read again.

Quote:Non-Hawk Physical Pegs - +15avd

Another honest moment here, they could use the avd boost more than any other flier, they generally have the worst stats of them all and die to bows like flies (even more so than every other flier).

This just makes hawks with a white coloring and multiple weapons, worse stats be damned.

Quote:Hawks/Dracos + 15crit

Was opting to have them trade their +15avd for crit so that their niche no longer overlaps with Troubadours and it keeps them on the offense. Note that once they get the avd drop (from losing the prev skill) they'll also die like flies to bows/magic just as the Falco/Seraph/Peregrine knights did.

Dear lord... Admittingly, I like this better than snipers getting that bonus. You all already know that I'm a nut about this stuff. But... I don't think this is the best plan. Still, it has consistency and that's important.

Quote:Nomad Promotions - Bowbreaker - WTA2 vs Bow units (or stat revamp)

Still on the fence about this one, though nomads' promotions do make them potent bow unit slayers.

Unlike above with the generals and battle armors, this is somewhat feasible since everyone has a bow unit. Whether or not it would stay that way is up for debate, though... nah, it probably would. Their 2-range ain't goin' away any time soon.

Quote:CEVMages - Tomefaire +3mt to tomes
Because we all know CEV sucks in it's current state and probably will for a while. Do you really want these units to just sit there and hope not to be killed in one hit (like every other unit in the game)? So I threw some offense in their life.

I like this a lot. Though, we should also triple the CEV bonus too, to make it actually serve a purpose. I shouldn't have to promote to a class just to get rid of random critblicks while having little effect on dedicated critters. Especially since troub promotes essentially get the same god damn bonus.

Quote:Warrior/Ranger/Hero/Infantry - Aggressor - +4atk on user's turn (does not work with brvs for now)

Need a reason to pick these units over a 5/5/5 or a 15crit? Here's one (I guess).[/quote]

Works for me.

Quote:Agent - Lightbreaker - WTA2 vs Light units
Centurion - Animabreaker - ^ vs Anima
Leftenant - Darkbreaker - ^ vs Dark

Making them more potent magic slayers if anything, the 15hit is nice, though something is still keeping them off the battlefield.[/quote]

As above. You'd be better giving this bonus to the 5/5/5s, as they would mean they'd have bonuses on 2/3rds of the possible magic units. This has flaws still, as that doesn't stop someone from fielding all light when you have all darkness, making them useless. But I digress... try to avoid this.

Quote:CEVArmors - Rider's Bane - deal effective dmg vs mounted units

Combating their terribad Mov once again~

rofl. Do it motherfucker, do it. But it should apply to ALL 8 MOV units, not just riders. Otherwise you have the same issue as above. Fuck all flier teams not taking bonus damage.

Quote:5/5/5s -> 7/7/7s

It's been discussed before and would make them at least more usable outside of gauntlets. Or honestly I was almost thinking of having something else (but would involve more classes in the game). I feel that the bonus tries to have the units evenly distribute their stats toward skl/spd/lck and unless they're lords, let's face it, it's not happening. I'd suggest a bst or promo bonus change or something to make them more viable outside of suiciding in gauntlets.

tl;dr whatever, I approve, though they should also get +2 MT and +7 CEV just cuz. This is, of course, assuming they don't get the other ability I mentioned earlier.

Quote:Overall I threw a lot more offensive skills into it, people have been saying that the game is too defense oriented, perhaps this could balance things out a bit more.

Certainly this has potential. I've been neglecting my attempts at balancing the game because I can't seem to make it any less chance-based with the stupid RNG and the weapon triangle. However, I feel that I should point you guys in the correct direction since you both have no such problems with it.

Btw, if you're wondering why I mentioned the triangle, just think about it. What happens when the opponent fields 3 light when you have 3 darkness? Not fair at all. The triangle is greatly for the actual games. It adds a lot of strategy. But here it's just a nightmare to deal with. Perhaps units with only one weapon type shouldn't get WTA (and their targets not get WTD).

Quote:P.S. Classes/Units that weren't mentioned probably only need something as minor as a stat change or are already fine as they are currently.

Maybe... I personally think every class should get a unique skill to make it well... unique. But uh... baby steps, baby steps.

[Speedy - IX]

(08-02-2014, 05:39 PM)Breadophile Wrote: You see Speeds, there's only a couple consistencies between the many possible feasible team combinations in FETO: all teams have magic, all teams have physical (and almost always at least one bow user), all teams have mounted (or suffer performance problems, which makes up for this), and in promoted, all teams have staves and unmounted.

Whatever bonuses you apply need to be usable in every battle (or almost every battle, such as in the case of fighting people with no mounted in promoteds; you are already at an advantage there). Otherwise it's just more random chance, albeit dependent on your opponent instead of the RNG.

As I said before, it's a little too random to give a bonus versus specific unit types. Make it a blanket thing, like... all battle mages receive WTA1 and maybe -5 hit to make it 1/10 instead of 1/15 against melee units.

What happens if your crusader goes up against a bunch of swordmasters and no lance users at all? It should get a bonus against those swordmasters too.

It still retains its awesome physical def and the counter skill and I'll add to this when I reply a bit further down.

Quote:Footman - Gen - Sword Faire: +5mt to all swords
Knight -> Gen - Lance Faire: + lances
Guard -> Gen - Axe Faire: ^ axes
All Bow Gens Bowfaire ^ Bows

More attack power to compensate that abysmal mov of theirs?

I'm all for more attack power, but... as above, the armors should just receive a bonus to hitting bow units to make them supreme physical killers. Give them unapposed WTA2/3 (meaning the bow users don't get WTD, though it doesn't really matter against a general) instead.

Do we really need more bow unit hate though? I feel like doing this would have even more consequences for bow units than anything. They also roughly already have a unopposed WTA2/3 when though it's on their turn...

Quote:Non-Hawk Physical Pegs - +15avd

Another honest moment here, they could use the avd boost more than any other flier, they generally have the worst stats of them all and die to bows like flies (even more so than every other flier).

This just makes hawks with a white coloring and multiple weapons, worse stats be damned.

Note that they also use the avd bonus better than their hawk counter-parts thx to WTA2. They can turn out to be much more useful.

Quote:Agent - Lightbreaker - WTA2 vs Light units
Centurion - Animabreaker - ^ vs Anima
Leftenant - Darkbreaker - ^ vs Dark

Making them more potent magic slayers if anything, the 15hit is nice, though something is still keeping them off the battlefield.

As above. You'd be better giving this bonus to the 5/5/5s, as they would mean they'd have bonuses on 2/3rds of the possible magic units. This has flaws still, as that doesn't stop someone from fielding all light when you have all darkness, making them useless. But I digress... try to avoid this.

I'd avoid it (fielding units of all one type) as well for reasons I'll post near the end of this~

Quote:Overall I threw a lot more offensive skills into it, people have been saying that the game is too defense oriented, perhaps this could balance things out a bit more.

Certainly this has potential. I've been neglecting my attempts at balancing the game because I can't seem to make it any less chance-based with the stupid RNG and the weapon triangle. However, I feel that I should point you guys in the correct direction since you both have no such problems with it.

Btw, if you're wondering why I mentioned the triangle, just think about it. What happens when the opponent fields 3 light when you have 3 darkness? Not fair at all. The triangle is greatly for the actual games. It adds a lot of strategy. But here it's just a nightmare to deal with. Perhaps units with only one weapon type shouldn't get WTA (and their targets not get WTD).

Let's be honest here, the only time this ever even happens is when the units all have the same ability (as you suggested above) leaving the only difference between them a statistical one, meaning that of course people will field all dark/light in order to counter each other. That's why I opted for each of them to have separate abilities to prevent shenanigans like that.

Quote:P.S. Classes/Units that weren't mentioned probably only need something as minor as a stat change or are already fine as they are currently.

Maybe... I personally think every class should get a unique skill to make it well... unique. But uh... baby steps, baby steps.
[/quote]

True~

[Nolan Kryptonite]

DOn't want huge quote pyramids, so here, only replying to parts I disagree with:

Re: Speedy:

Generals Wrote:Mov is their problem, though if they were as mobile as other foot units, then they'd end up outclassing the ones that want to be physical tanks. I gave them that MT boost to try and help them do the dmg they weren't able to do on FS in the later phases of battle.

For the first one, there are a couple distinct disadvantages for Generals:
-OP Armorslayers
-Terribad Spd/Res/Luc

The only distinct advantage Generals would have are that HP/Str/Skl/Def build, which does admittedly step on the Str/Skl/Def builds on physicals, but at least they don't have to worry about armorslayers.

Peg Knights Wrote:I'm also trying to differentiate them from Champions/Infantry/Wyv. Lords/Nomad Troopers/Paladins whom all have more reason (survivability) to be used than the physical pegs right now even if Bow eff. was nerfed.

They also have high innate Res/Luc, which lets them run Aurora or go Avdy better. My lord actually isn't bad, well, if it wasn't for generic bow users almost taking it out with Silvers.

Hawks/Dracos Wrote:You and I both know a good tactician wouldn't rush in on an FS depending on a crit :| They have to drop the avd bonus if they were to get crit bonus...Overall I'd recommend testing this one first, this could work wonders if you ask me.

Aside from that only Hawk Archers are being used and that's only b-cuz we don't have a bow troub promotion. Troubs cover the niche better than Hawks/Dracos (AND they can heal) which is why we no longer see them.

The former is true, but what I meant is that when there is fighting, the 15% Crit won't really help. It's like a Sniper, except being unable to hit and run at all. Crit+ units aren't useful otherwise, hence lack of SM/Berserkers/Halberdiers. It's not the bow effectiveness-- it's their lack of 2-range crit abilities.

As for Hawk Archers being the only Avd+ class in use right now, that's not true. Hawk Knights use lolances, and the Dracos don't have the Luc to support their Avd. Generics can get enough Luc to insight the ones with 26 Luc lol. And with no Pow/Spd/Luc, they have to give up either Pow or Spd to reach that Luc too.

On the contrary, Troubs are being used FOR their staff capabilities.

Horsies Wrote:Other horses that promote to bows actually do great against other units with bows (...and low def). They attack with full pow, get attacked with full pow ergo they can counter at full pow. (they wreck bow units tbh). Though Nomads specifically could probably use a stat revamp so that they can actually have more than one build (same to scouts).

The other horsies should get something too, and all hoursies should get a atst revamp. Now that no one uses terrain maps, they don't really have an advantage anyways over fliers.

[quote+15 Hit Units]Where!? I must have missed them in my last hundred 1v1 battles :O[/quote]
Okay, well I use them, sometimes. That Generic 58/30/24/30 with the hit of a 27 Skl unit.

5/5/5 Wrote:yeah, but CEV is so bad right now ._. why not give them something they (the generics) can actually utilize?

I don't think it's THAT bad, at the very least it would pretty much negate the random crits. The +2/2/2 doesn't mean too much anyways...

Now to Kaishin:

Generals Wrote:I'm all for more attack power, but... as above, the armors should just receive a bonus to hitting bow units to make them supreme physical killers. Give them unapposed WTA2/3 (meaning the bow users don't get WTD, though it doesn't really matter against a general) instead.

THey already are "bow killers," it's just no one uses them... still. For good reason. Counter units (not not intended) are not good. I don't mean the skill counter, I mean "___ is popular, I'll use ___ to counter it."

5/5/5 Wrote:tl;dr whatever, I approve, though they should also get +2 MT and +7 CEV just cuz. This is, of course, assuming they don't get the other ability I mentioned earlier.

Not sure if intentional or if you didn't think through it, but that means B ranks effectively become A ranks as far as Mt, and get 5 more hit due to being B rank.

tl;dr: Sharp Bolganone is 14/72/26. Sharp Tornado with the 2/7/7/7 bonuses built in are 14/84/33. Or Gambler Bolga for 16/74/25.

Also, the mildly popular Sorcerors means now poor Anima units need 60/19/21 to survive 2 49 Pow Gespensts. owate, people use heavy Fenrir, so it needs to be 60/19/22. Goodbye Anima.

WTA Wrote:Btw, if you're wondering why I mentioned the triangle, just think about it. What happens when the opponent fields 3 light when you have 3 darkness? Not fair at all. The triangle is greatly for the actual games. It adds a lot of strategy. But here it's just a nightmare to deal with. Perhaps units with only one weapon type shouldn't get WTA (and their targets not get WTD).

1. Your own fault for using only one type of unit.
2. Not really, it ideally should only apply 1/6 or 1/3 of the time.

[LeaderR Elliot]

Armorslayers are too weak

they should be D rank and buyable!

[Breadophile]

(08-03-2014, 03:35 PM)Nolan Kryptonite Wrote: They already are "bow killers," it's just no one uses them... still. For good reason. Counter units (not not intended) are not good. I don't mean the skill counter, I mean "___ is popular, I'll use ___ to counter it."

If it's not a lord they are not bow killers. Their piss accuracy means they have to do bronze + counter (possibly x2). I could just replace them with a unit that doesn't have a huge disadvantage in a ton of matchups and do the same damage. A wraith, for instance, takes slightly more and deals slightly more whilst having a ton more utility.

They should have power to such an extent that they could possibly one round bow users. And before you mention it, no, it's not broken. They still have 5 MOV. You guys seem to have next to no difficulty keeping those weakass snipers out of my range. This shouldn't be any harder.

Quote:Not sure if intentional or if you didn't think through it, but that means B ranks effectively become A ranks as far as Mt, and get 5 more hit due to being B rank.

I was throwing it out for lulz. But something like that could have potential if we don't stick to this mold that naturally makes it so every unit's POW revolves around the 27-30 range (except pegmages, obviously).

Quote:tl;dr: Sharp Bolganone is 14/72/26. Sharp Tornado with the 2/7/7/7 bonuses built in are 14/84/33. Or Gambler Bolga for 16/74/25.

Also, the mildly popular Sorcerors means now poor Anima units need 60/19/21 to survive 2 49 Pow Gespensts. owate, people use heavy Fenrir, so it needs to be 60/19/22. Goodbye Anima.

Though that suggestion was a joke and thus your response means little in this specific instance, you make a really good point. We could buff POW to such an extent that calculating thresholds for this isn't really reliable, or rather, not feasible. Suddenly nothing can survive the awesome might of the double gespenst, or, more importantly, a double tempest or double luce.

We could also change WTA so that it works differently depending on your type. Sort of like weapon proficiency in Shadow Dragon or New Mystery. That way darkness and axes wouldn't throw off the balance for anima and lance users.

Quote:1. Your own fault for using only one type of unit.
2. Not really, it ideally should only apply 1/6 or 1/3 of the time.

Not gonna lie, I'm surprised to get this response from you. This is the sort of thing I expected from Fala or Elliot (or as he is now colloquially known, Trolliet).

Imagine a different situation. You bring a magic of each type. Your opponent brings 3 anima. Now your light user can't do much, can they? Hope you built them for utility. Sure, you can just have them attack the other three units, but the fact that your opponent can put all three of their anima dudes up front and wall one of your units is... pretty bad.

And yes, maybe your light user has some sort of build that is conducive to high hit rates and so they can shrug this off a bit. You'll still have problems 2HKO'ing those units using this unit no matter what. And worst of all? You have no control over this.

This shouldn't happen, which is why I propose that the only units to receive WTA are ones with multiple types. That way you have a build a unit to take advantage of WTA instead of just getting lucky with enemy matchups.

Note that I use anima over darkness to show that this applies even with the worst of the three magic types.

[Se7enSword]

So, will counter crit penalty still remain?

[Nolan Kryptonite]

Quote:If it's not a lord they are not bow killers. Their piss accuracy means they have to do bronze + counter (possibly x2). I could just replace them with a unit that doesn't have a huge disadvantage in a ton of matchups and do the same damage. A wraith, for instance, takes slightly more and deals slightly more whilst having a ton more utility.

Bows can't do anything to Generals though. Generals will pretty much always win a 1v1 if it ever came down to it.

Other units having more utility are exactly why they are better.

Quote:We could buff POW to such an extent that calculating thresholds for this isn't really reliable, or rather, not feasible. Suddenly nothing can survive the awesome might of the double gespenst, or, more importantly, a double tempest or double luce.

We could also change WTA so that it works differently depending on your type. Sort of like weapon proficiency in Shadow Dragon or New Mystery. That way darkness and axes wouldn't throw off the balance for anima and lance users.

At the buffing Pow idea: No. Then the entire game would become who has the most mounted and who is the better "dancer."

WTA changing is ok tho.

Quote:Imagine a different situation. You bring a magic of each type. Your opponent brings 3 anima. Now your light user can't do much, can they? Hope you built them for utility. Sure, you can just have them attack the other three units, but the fact that your opponent can put all three of their anima dudes up front and wall one of your units is... pretty bad.

And yes, maybe your light user has some sort of build that is conducive to high hit rates and so they can shrug this off a bit. You'll still have problems 2HKO'ing those units using this unit no matter what. And worst of all? You have no control over this.

This shouldn't happen, which is why I propose that the only units to receive WTA are ones with multiple types. That way you have a build a unit to take advantage of WTA instead of just getting lucky with enemy matchups.

Note that I use anima over darkness to show that this applies even with the worst of the three magic types.

Then you can use your dark unit to "wall" the anima... or your other 4 units? :|

[Fredmir]

(08-04-2014, 08:10 PM)Nolan Kryptonite Wrote: [

Quote:We could buff POW to such an extent that calculating thresholds for this isn't really reliable, or rather, not feasible. Suddenly nothing can survive the awesome might of the double gespenst, or, more importantly, a double tempest or double luce.

We could also change WTA so that it works differently depending on your type. Sort of like weapon proficiency in Shadow Dragon or New Mystery. That way darkness and axes wouldn't throw off the balance for anima and lance users.

At the buffing Pow idea: No. Then the entire game would become who has the most mounted and who is the better "dancer."

WTA changing is ok tho.

Throwing this out there, it would change it from the canon FE, but how about changing stats of all 3 weapons in the triangle so they have the same Mt and Hit?

That way you only get an advantage when you have WTA, so it's a real triangle where all 3 can be equally good separately.

I'm not going to defend that idea anyway, so destroy it all you want xP

[Speedy - IX]

(08-03-2014, 03:35 PM)Nolan Kryptonite Wrote: DOn't want huge quote pyramids, so here, only replying to parts I disagree with:
For the first one, there are a couple distinct disadvantages for Generals:
-OP Armorslayers
-Terribad Spd/Res/Luc

The only distinct advantage Generals would have are that HP/Str/Skl/Def build, which does admittedly step on the Str/Skl/Def builds on physicals, but at least they don't have to worry about armorslayers.

forgot the 35def cap

(08-03-2014, 03:35 PM)Nolan Kryptonite Wrote: They also have high innate Res/Luc, which lets them run Aurora or go Avdy better. My lord actually isn't bad, well, if it wasn't for generic bow users almost taking it out with Silvers.

Rora Pegs get braved and the "avoidy" ones are definitely not avoidy (esp. vs bows)

(08-03-2014, 03:35 PM)Nolan Kryptonite Wrote: The former is true, but what I meant is that when there is fighting, the 15% Crit won't really help. It's like a Sniper, except being unable to hit and run at all. Crit+ units aren't useful otherwise, hence lack of SM/Berserkers/Halberdiers. It's not the bow effectiveness-- it's their lack of 2-range crit abilities.

Once in the close combat phase, SM/Zerker/Halby actually do pretty well (source: exp)

(08-03-2014, 03:35 PM)Nolan Kryptonite Wrote: As for Hawk Archers being the only Avd+ class in use right now, that's not true. Hawk Knights use lolances, and the Dracos don't have the Luc to support their Avd. Generics can get enough Luc to insight the ones with 26 Luc lol. And with no Pow/Spd/Luc, they have to give up either Pow or Spd to reach that Luc too.

On the contrary, Troubs are being used FOR their staff capabilities.

And the fact that they are more accurate and just as avoidy as Hawks and Dracos, and more atk power thanks to superior insight.

(08-03-2014, 03:35 PM)Nolan Kryptonite Wrote: I don't think it's THAT bad, at the very least it would pretty much negate the random crits. The +2/2/2 doesn't mean too much anyways...

And still do little to nothing for the units that are actually trying to crit you.

The +2/2/2 gives them just a bit more freedom in choosing their stats, heck, they can total up to 3pts and have them out elsewhere now.

(08-03-2014, 06:04 PM)Breadophile Wrote: Imagine a different situation. You bring a magic of each type. Your opponent brings 3 anima. Now your light user can't do much, can they? Hope you built them for utility. Sure, you can just have them attack the other three units, but the fact that your opponent can put all three of their anima dudes up front and wall one of your units is... pretty bad.

And yes, maybe your light user has some sort of build that is conducive to high hit rates and so they can shrug this off a bit. You'll still have problems 2HKO'ing those units using this unit no matter what. And worst of all? You have no control over this.

This shouldn't happen, which is why I propose that the only units to receive WTA are ones with multiple types. That way you have a build a unit to take advantage of WTA instead of just getting lucky with enemy matchups.

Note that I use anima over darkness to show that this applies even with the worst of the three magic types.

(08-02-2014, 08:17 PM)Speedy - IX Wrote:
Let's be honest here, the only time this ever even happens is when the units all have the same ability (as you suggested above) leaving the only difference between them a statistical one, meaning that of course people will field all dark/light in order to counter each other. That's why I opted for each of them to have separate abilities to prevent shenanigans like that.

Aside from that, fielding all of one wpn type will catch up to that player anyway, seeing as that's no full proof matchup. Also facing all monotype units does not mean an auto-loss, your example speaks for mages,but there are more than just mages on the map to begin with.

[Breadophile]

Nolan Kryptofucker, the Sun's First Child Wrote:Bows can't do anything to Generals though. Generals will pretty much always win a 1v1 if it ever came down to it.

Other units having more utility are exactly why they are better.

Too bad generals aren't fighting a 1v1. If you can't bait the opponent into attacking it over your other units, it's not that effective.

Quote:At the buffing Pow idea: No. Then the entire game would become who has the most mounted and who is the better "dancer."

That's a very extreme situation. You can't just knock down an idea like that. Also with the meta being established, the game is already about who is the better "dancer." The way I figured, we buff POW such that units don't get one-shot, but it takes an insane amount of DEF and RES to be a successful dual tank. Force units to build offensively, single-tank counter/rora-ers or just pure offense "ima smash you into the ground" units.

Quote:WTA changing is ok tho.

Thank you thank you! Praise me more! Nyonyonyonyo!

Quote:Then you can use your dark unit to "wall" the anima... or your other 4 units? :|

One unit can't wall. You're just dodging the issue. >_>

Fredmiricus, God of Donuts Wrote:Throwing this out there, it would change it from the canon FE, but how about changing stats of all 3 weapons in the triangle so they have the same Mt and Hit?

That way you only get an advantage when you have WTA, so it's a real triangle where all 3 can be equally good separately.

I'm not going to defend that idea anyway, so destroy it all you want xP

I think it would turn into random rock paper scissors. I dunno. That could be interesting... but battles would have to be fought with more units, not just six, IMO.

Speedy - IX, Emmisary of Apricot Trees Wrote:Aside from that, fielding all of one wpn type will catch up to that player anyway, seeing as that's no full proof matchup. Also facing all monotype units does not mean an auto-loss, your example speaks for mages,but there are more than just mages on the map to begin with.

That's certainly true, but you need to position more units in range. Easier said than done. While they might not have a fullproof matchup (see: against 3 dark users), the fact that they can get such an advantage at all is ridiculous.

In tournaments you can see what units your opponent/s is/are fielding. This is nice because it means weapon triangle control isn't just random, but instead becomes somewhat predictable and somewhat mind-games.

While we're on the issue, I hate dancing so much. There must be a better way to conduct battles.

[Nolan Kryptonite]

Quote:forgot the 35def cap

Negated by hammers. Didn't even do calks, but I think 60 HP/30 Def fares better vs. Heavy Great than 70/35 does vs. Hammer.

Also Generals rarely go 33+ Def

Quote:Rora Pegs get braved and the "avoidy" ones are definitely not avoidy (esp. vs bows)

I mean they can do those things better than horses.

Quote:Once in the close combat phase, SM/Zerker/Halby actually do pretty well (source: exp)

Also Snipers still do better even past that because of flier effectiveness.

Quote:And the fact that they are more accurate and just as avoidy as Hawks and Dracos, and more atk power thanks to superior insight.

Generic Draco vs. Generic Valk:
146.5 hit vs. 157.5 hit (177.5 post Insight)
96 avd vs. 86 avd
54 HP vs. 42 HP
24 (!) Def vs. 11 Def (not being countered, can counter)
6 Res vs. 15 Res

Pretty fair. Except the whole being insighted part. >_>

Quote:Too bad generals aren't fighting a 1v1. If you can't bait the opponent into attacking it over your other units, it's not that effective.

Um, this is my point lol

Generals are pretty much a counter to bows, but suck because they are just a counter to bows.

Quote:That's a very extreme situation. You can't just knock down an idea like that. Also with the meta being established, the game is already about who is the better "dancer." The way I figured, we buff POW such that units don't get one-shot, but it takes an insane amount of DEF and RES to be a successful dual tank. Force units to build offensively, single-tank counter/rora-ers or just pure offense "ima smash you into the ground" units.

That is Def/Res nerf, not Pow buff. Easily remediable to changing BSTs.

Quote:One unit can't wall. You're just dodging the issue. >_>

Yes you can. If you put 3 animas at the front to "scare" away the light user, I can put the one dark unit to "wall" your animas. What are you going to do? FS with 3 units with WTD?

Quote:Throwing this out there, it would change it from the canon FE, but how about changing stats of all 3 weapons in the triangle so they have the same Mt and Hit?

That way you only get an advantage when you have WTA, so it's a real triangle where all 3 can be equally good separately.

Actually agree with this. I mean classes already have differentiation stat wise. If anything, make the difference Hit and Crit or maybe Wt, or other advantages.

[Speedchain]

Quote:Throwing this out there, it would change it from the canon FE, but how about changing stats of all 3 weapons in the triangle so they have the same Mt and Hit?

That way you only get an advantage when you have WTA, so it's a real triangle where all 3 can be equally good separately.

I like this idea. Would everything get the same stats, for example everything gets Anima/Bow/Lance stats or would only the pow become the same and would the hit and crit be different either by keeping them the same or changing them as well?

[LeaderR Elliot]

Quote:While we're on the issue, I hate dancing so much. There must be a better way to conduct battles.

Shocking news! You don't even play the game anymore!

It's part of the game kaishin, and is never gonna change. If we don't dance we then rush on the enemies. No change to game mechanics/units/weapons is gonna hange that unless you halve the movement of units lol

In real wars all soldiers rush into the battles after all... wait they do not!

[Speedchain]

(08-10-2014, 04:23 PM)LeaderR Elliot Wrote:

Quote:While we're on the issue, I hate dancing so much. There must be a better way to conduct battles.

Shocking news! You don't even play the game anymore!

It's part of the game kaishin, and is never gonna change. If we don't dance we then rush on the enemies. No change to game mechanics/units/weapons is gonna hange that unless you halve the movement of units lol

In real wars all soldiers rush into the battles after all... wait they do not!

You can just keep playing against newbies and then you'll never have to dance, problem solved.

EDIT: You could also counterpick.

[Breadophile]

(08-10-2014, 04:23 PM)LeaderR Elliot Wrote:

Quote:While we're on the issue, I hate dancing so much. There must be a better way to conduct battles.

Shocking news! You don't even play the game anymore!

It's part of the game kaishin, and is never gonna change. If we don't dance we then rush on the enemies. No change to game mechanics/units/weapons is gonna hange that unless you halve the movement of units lol

In real wars all soldiers rush into the battles after all... wait they do not!

They also don't shuffle positions around the battlefield.



As I proposed in the chat, we should make maps shorter, so dancing encompasses another aspect of fighting: cornering (or pushing back).

Except in very few situations, it's not feasible to back the opponent into a corner. Shortening the maps changes this and allows players to push each other back and gain a significant advantage from it.

Admittingly, this new aspect is a lot easier to wrap one's head around in the middle of a battle, but that's where it shines. Eventually, new players will have to learn how to dance. It will be much easier for them with this aspect added to the game.

P.S. Take notice of the fact that blue is not up against the edge of the new stage. They are 5 columns from the side. The field should be shortened more so they start with more room than orange, with orange countering by getting to pick its formation first.