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+---- Thread: [Feature suggestion] MANAKETES!!! (/thread-792.html)
[Feature suggestion] MANAKETES!!! - MMM - 06-13-2015
Manakete [Scholar]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/17.5%]: 80.00
POW [2/2.5%]: 25.00
SKL [0/15%]: 25.00
SPD [0/0%]: 15.00
DEF [2/12.5%]: 25.00
RES [2/10%]: 25.00
LCK [0/12.5%]: 26.00
+
Quote:Dark Dragonstone: 22 Mt, 2 wt, 100 hit, Boosts Stats - SKL: +5, DEF: +10, RES: +10, LCK: +5
=
OP OP OP OP
This should be changed. Because let's face it, having Manaketes on FETO would be absolutely AMAZING, but as they are now they would wreck any non-Manakete units. Seriously, 80 HP, 35 def and 35 res? That's the closest I've seen to a unit that isn't OTKOable (turn, as in, by an entire army) in a standard 6-man match.
Manaketes can be nerfed in 2 ways, by reducing their stats or by reducing the power their stones have. If their stats are lowered and the stones are rebalanced I think they can become usable. I also don't think they should have 7 movement, 6 should be fine.
Regarding the dragonstones, they could be changed to have weapon ranks as well so that they don't get +5 stats at level 1 which would be a bit ridiculous. And apart from Bronzes, they should also have limited uses so using these guys isn't too cheap (pun intended).
They should also have 3 different promotion choices, like every other unit. One of them could focus on being offensive (focus on pow, skl, lck), the other on being tanky (focus on hp, def, res) and one that's glassy (pow, skl, spd and lck but with more focus on speed, a bit less on skill and frailer than the offensive version) although maybe the particular examples could be different ones. And just as an example, stat caps could look like this (with luck last):
OffKete: 60/30/30/20/20/20/30
TanKete: 70/25/20/15/25/25/20
GlassKete: 50/30/25/30/20/20/25
This would be assuming S-rank Dragonstones give +5/6 to 2 stats, and def+res as well as pow+spd are unavailable combinations because they would absolutely break their respective dragons, and again that all Manaketes could use the same stones. I felt like including a balanced option but I feel like those would be hard to absolutely balance so instead I made OffKete. It still looks good and not too powerful or too weak, imo, roughly like a traditional Manakete but not overpowered xD
TanKete has 15 speed cap because assuming that there's a speed-boosting dragonstone, cap at 20 would mean it could reach 25 speed and only be pursuited by peg mages -> too op? I'm not sure, this could actually be tested, because as of now I don't have any particular idea about how many stat points they get in total. =P
I'm also not 100% sure about whether GlassKete's spread would be considered balanced. If Dragonstones are to have the same power as lances, it can almost be ORKOd with by a Counter Mage Knight (assuming the Dragonstones are physical. If they're actually magical, replace that with something that has Aurora lol) for example, BUT that's assuming it has all of its max stats, in reality the stats will be slightly lopsided. If there's a +skl/spd Dragonstone it would probably also have the potential to annihilate glassy units single-handedly which is why I'm not sure about giving 30 as opposed to 25 speed as the max stat.
That would be my take on balancing them, anyway. I'd be happy just to be able to use them xD
RE: [Feature suggestion] MANAKETES!!! - Fredmir - 06-13-2015
lol Manaketes were made for campaign mode, I don't think they ever were planned to be used in PvP Feto.
Cause even in Fire Emblem, Manakete are OP units to a certain point, would make them out of character a bit to balance them to the level of lower units, they don't really have promotion too, so their promotion bonus would have to be given to them at the beggining, OP againt unpromos.
RE: [Feature suggestion] MANAKETES!!! - MMM - 06-13-2015
(06-13-2015, 01:40 PM)Fredmir Wrote: lol Manaketes were made for campaign mode, I don't think they ever were planned to be used in PvP Feto.
Cause even in Fire Emblem, Manakete are OP units to a certain point, would make them out of character a bit to balance them to the level of lower units, they don't really have promotion too, so their promotion bonus would have to be given to them at the beggining, OP againt unpromos.
I don't think it matters overly much if Manaketes were intended for campaigns only. I think it would still be awesome to have them for regular PvP play so long as they don't absolutely break the meta.
And from what I've heard, FETO =/= FE =P So what if they're out of character a bit? Sword users can actually get 30 strength here, and while I'm fairly certain that's out of character too it was still done for the sake of balancing. So why not rebalance Manakete stats, give them promotions and make them usable? If I'm not mistaken the same 60-something classes have been used for a few years straight on FETO so I think introducing something new for a change couldn't hurt.
At least let them be tested. >_>
RE: [Feature suggestion] MANAKETES!!! - Fredmir - 06-13-2015
I'm not against it lol (it's just that my earth dragonstone would lose it's uniqueness!)
I'm not the best person to talk about balance and etc. So maybe have them tested, but Dunno, let's wait for someone else to say something xD
RE: [Feature suggestion] MANAKETES!!! - MMM - 06-13-2015
(06-13-2015, 06:34 PM)Fredmir Wrote: I'm not against it lol (it's just that my earth dragonstone would lose it's uniqueness!)
OH I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN
It's ok Earth Dragonstones will probably have to be banned for overpoweredness anyway, unless they're just changed in terms of the stat boosts in which case ha ha =P
RE: [Feature suggestion] MANAKETES!!! - Nolan Kryptonite - 06-13-2015
A way to balance them could be to have them have low BST but high growths.
Also in-game they have unpromo caps which mean that all skills would activate on them, at least without the boosts. Maybe that can be their weakness instead of the dragonslayer weapons, but melee weapons are already low tier.
Caps would be 80/25/25/25/25/25/30, 5 Mov
Weapons would go from E/D/C/B/A with Holy/Dark being S ranks.
Manakete [Balanced] (Base Growths are the decimals)
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 23.00 (22.100)
POW [0/0%]: 4.80
SKL [0/0%]: 4.75
SPD [0/0%]: 3.55
DEF [0/0%]: 5.55
RES [0/0%]: 6.55
LCK [0/0%]: 7.80
Manakete [Balanced]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 48.00
POW [0/0%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 19.00
SPD [0/0%]: 14.00
DEF [0/0%]: 16.00
RES [0/0%]: 17.00
LCK [0/0%]: 23.00
Example builds:
Manakete [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 60.00
POW [2/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 18.00 +5
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [2/20%]: 23.00 +10
RES [2/20%]: 24.00 +10
LCK [0/0%]: 22.00 +5
(with Dark Stone with 22 Mt, equivalent of max Pow with Gespenst)
Countora.
Manakete [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [1/0%]: 50.00
POW [2/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 18.00
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [1/10%]: 20.00 +10
RES [2/20%]: 24.00 +5
LCK [0/0%]: 22.00
(with Earth Stone, with 18 Mt, equivalent of max Pow with Tornado)
Nihil/Countora. Almost as tanky as lordruid, but cannot offer support.
Manakete [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 46.00
POW [2/10%]: 25.00
SKL [2/10%]: 24.00 +10
SPD [2/20%]: 21.00 +10
DEF [0/0%]: 15.00
RES [0/0%]: 16.00 +5
LCK [0/0%]: 23.00 +5
(with Holy Stone with 22 Mt, equivalent of max Pow with Gespenst)
Warthsuitsight?
RE: [Feature suggestion] MANAKETES!!! - MMM - 06-14-2015
Yeah you nerfed them a lot there. We don't have to take every example from how Manaketes are like in-game, although even if we do that, Awakening (6 mov, different types of dragonstones that are actually buyable) would serve us better than the GBA titles (5 mov but flying, one dragonstone in the entire game unless enemy control glitch, over-the-roof-growths, infinite bulk) imo.
RE: [Feature suggestion] MANAKETES!!! - Nolan Kryptonite - 06-17-2015
Fixed. There isn't really a way of getting around the S rank stones being broken without just nerfing their bonuses though.
RE: [Feature suggestion] MANAKETES!!! - MMM - 06-18-2015
(06-13-2015, 11:03 PM)Nolan Kryptonite Wrote: Manakete [Balanced] (Base Growths are the decimals)
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 23.00 (22.100)
POW [0/0%]: 4.80
SKL [0/0%]: 4.75
SPD [0/0%]: 3.55
DEF [0/0%]: 5.55
RES [0/0%]: 6.55
LCK [0/0%]: 7.80
Manakete [Balanced]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 48.00
POW [0/0%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 19.00
SPD [0/0%]: 14.00
DEF [0/0%]: 16.00
RES [0/0%]: 17.00
LCK [0/0%]: 23.00
Not sure if I've mentioned it yet but I still see a problem there namely that you'd start off with a Manakete who'd be fit for unpromo battling and after 20 levels it has the strength of a promoted unit.. and it doesn't really go through a promotion. I know it would be a bit uncharacteristic but I'd still suggest to make promotions for them so they're reasonably well-balanced as they level up.
Also that luck. What the hell...
Quote:Example builds:
Manakete [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 60.00
POW [2/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 18.00 +5
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [2/20%]: 23.00 +10
RES [2/20%]: 24.00 +10
LCK [0/0%]: 22.00 +5
(with Dark Stone with 22 Mt, equivalent of max Pow with Gespenst)
Countora.
Manakete [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [1/0%]: 50.00
POW [2/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 18.00
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [1/10%]: 20.00 +10
RES [2/20%]: 24.00 +5
LCK [0/0%]: 22.00
(with Earth Stone, with 18 Mt, equivalent of max Pow with Tornado)
Nihil/Countora. Almost as tanky as lordruid, but cannot offer support.
Manakete [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 46.00
POW [2/10%]: 25.00
SKL [2/10%]: 24.00 +10
SPD [2/20%]: 21.00 +10
DEF [0/0%]: 15.00
RES [0/0%]: 16.00 +5
LCK [0/0%]: 23.00 +5
(with Holy Stone with 22 Mt, equivalent of max Pow with Gespenst)
Warthsuitsight?
On GlassKete I'd put 2 points from skill to HP so it survives Brave Axe. 32 skill would still Wrath basically the entire meta. O_O
Don't understand why on earth you'd use earth dragonstone over dark dragonstone on the second set. As they are now there is literally no advantage to be gained from using Earthstone instead of Darkstone except that it will probably be cheaper...
Manakete [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 60.00
POW [2/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/10%]: 20.00 +5
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [1/0%]: 18.00 +10
RES [0/0%]: 18.00 +10
LCK [0/0%]: 22.00 +5
Avoids most Wraths and can only be 3RKOd by triple heavy Fenrir/heavy Greataxe unless it's a crit (which, again, it's pretty decent at avoiding with that skill and luck) or any weakness it will gain if it gets implemented. Which, if it stays how it is, let's face it, it probably will.
(06-17-2015, 08:45 PM)Nolan Kryptonite Wrote: Fixed. There isn't really a way of getting around the S rank stones being broken without just nerfing their bonuses though.
And speaking of this yes, the stones reeaally should be nerfed... at the very least, and that's still being generous, Holy and Dark stones have to be nerfed. I mean, +30 stats, with dark giving +10 def and +10 res?! I know there have been even more powerful dragonstones in vanilla FEs but then again, they weren't designed with PvP or too much balancing in mind for the most part. Without nerfing the stones Manaketes still look pretty op with the growths you gave them, and there will be issues with balancing those growths if they don't get promotions. Do their level-ups just start counting double for the effect of battle restrictions?