at the time, there was only a 2 point gap.
Adept, mage and templar have the same speed base and growth.
Monk, mercenary, nomad, peg. archer, peg. knight, and troubadour have a better speed growth and the same base.
Adept and Templar need to cool down, too, lol.
The only reason I'm not mad about any of the other classes you listed is because they don't have 900 defense. ._.
High def/res units will always be good at low lvls/unpromo, but they still have their weaknesses. If you really fear the dk so much then you should just make a unit that can counter it.
kinda hard to do that when the DK outpaces most of the meta with speed, and already hits hard enough as is. the overkill defense it has pretty much spells an end to your team if you even lose 1 of your 2 magic units.
right now DK is polarizing the unpromote meta. there's no true counter to it.
>Mystic
Yeah and get walled by its 1000 defense. And if you're against a good player, they can simply de-equip the DK and give 0 shits.
>other magic units
You have to play super cautious with these when against a DK. Chances are, you'll want to keep BOTH magic units alive, because there's a super high chance one magic unit and one physical unit cant kill the DK.
Such as the battle I had with chains earlier. I was forced to choose between killing DK and getting walled by his mystic, or killing mystic and getting walled by his DK.
Unwinnable situations aren't cool. In short, a battle shouldn't be pre-determined before the battle even begins.
It's the same thing when you're facing an armour and like you just said mystics have the same effect with their high res. This just means that they counter certain units and every (decent) build will always counter another build. When you're battling a decent squad there will always be units that you really want to kill early on, because you'll have a really hard time killing it if one or two of your units have been killed first or it will deal a lot of damage to you if not dealt with. If the outcome of your battle is decided before it even begins then maybe you should rethink your squad.
Armors are a whole different story. If you don't have 2 or more mages, the battle is over regardless of how bad the person with the armor plays. But a reason why I haven't been putting armors on the spot is,
A. They don't have 1-2 range on every weapon.
B. They have only 5 move.
C. They can't be shoved by most units unless they're other armors, or +con-natured axe units.
D. They will almost always be pursuited unless its a <lv5 match and you happen to have Nihil.
As well, I could put Mystic on the same sentence, but their builds aren't generally as dynamic as DK's is. They can only perform one task well.
I think the reason why I have so much of a problem with DKs is, it can literally do /everything/. And a lot of times, it can do the job better than most other classes. As I proved in the first post, it can prove to be an even better pursuiter than peg mages at low levels based on the fact it isn't hampered by low growths and bases, and it can actually take a hit worth a damn. Sure, it can't take a flashlight to the face, but it's not like peg mages, mages, monks, and even shamans are tanking mages any better, either. It's a better physical wall than any armor can ever dream to be mainly because of the fact it can sometimes not be pursuit bait at all. It can make a nice dual-tank, made even better thanks to Ward buffs existing (and as a result, can even aurora some mages). I've seen some trolly avoidy insight DKs happen.
The better question I probably should've proposed is, what role can DK NOT fulfill?
Maybe not critmaster DK, but that's not saying much because lol@Wrath in unpromotes.
Have you ever looked at a mystic's stats? They're almost the same as a DKs, they have high speed, they can DT and as an added bonus their weapons are super effective against pegs. Mystics have more OHKO/ORKO potential than DKs.
Monks, mages, shamans and even pegs can all aurora the DK, even at its max res of 14, so if your mages can't take magic hits as well as your DK then that's because you didn't build them to take those, not because they don't have the potential to do so.
Just to give you a general idea of how similar the dk and the mystic are I made some builds. They can of course be tweeked depending on personal preference. I added wrath and insight builds for the lolz, dk can't wrath without losing pow or being ORKOable by pursuit and mystic can only get 16 luck. None of the builds can be ORKOed by pursuit.
Dark Kn. [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/10%]: 36.00
POW [0/10%]: 17.00
SKL [0/0%]: 10.00
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [2/0%]: 20.00
RES [2/20%]: 14.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
Mystic [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/10%]: 40.00
POW [0/10%]: 16.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [2/20%]: 14.00
RES [2/0%]: 20.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00
----
Dark Kn. [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/10%]: 32.00
POW [2/15%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 10.00
SPD [2/15%]: 18.00
DEF [2/0%]: 20.00
RES [0/0%]: 8.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
Mystic [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [/%]: 32.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [2/20%]: 18.00
DEF [0/0%]: 8.00
RES [2/0%]: 20.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00
----
Dark Kn. [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/20%]: 36.00
POW [2/15%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 10.00
SPD [2/5%]: 16.00
DEF [2/0%]: 20.00
RES [0/0%]: 8.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
Mystic [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/10%]: 36.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [2/10%]: 16.00
DEF [0/0%]: 8.00
RES [2/0%]: 20.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00
----
Dark Kn. [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 40.00
POW [2/15%]: 20.00
SKL [0/%]: 10.00
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [2/0%]: 20.00
RES [0/5%]: 9.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
Mystic [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/10%]: 40.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [0/10%]: 10.00
RES [2/0%]: 20.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00
----
Dark Kn. [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 40.00
POW [0/0%]: 15.00
SKL [0/0%]: 10.00
SPD [2/0%]: 15.00
DEF [0/0%]: 18.00
RES [2/20%]: 14.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
Mystic [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/10%]: 40.00
POW [1/0%]: 15.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [1/10%]: 15.00
DEF [2/20%]: 14.00
RES [/0%]: 18.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00
----
Dark Kn. [Scholar]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 40.00
POW [2/5%]: 18.00
SKL [2/15%]: 17.00
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [0/0%]: 16.00
RES [0/0%]: 8.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00
Mystic [Brute]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/10%]: 40.00
POW [2/20%]: 20.00
SKL [2/10%]: 17.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [0/0%]: 8.00
RES [0/0%]: 16.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00
----
Dark Kn. [Seer]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/20%]: 40.00
POW [2/0%]: 17.00
SKL [0/0%]: 10.00
SPD [0/0%]: 13.00
DEF [0/0%]: 16.00
RES [0/0%]: 8.00
LCK [2/20%]: 17.00
Mystic [Gladiator]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/10%]: 40.00
POW [2/10%]: 18.00
SKL [0/0%]: 11.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [0/0%]: 8.00
RES [0/0%]: 16.00
LCK [2/20%]: 16.00
Mystics start at a dismal base 6 speed. Sure they have generally higher speed growth, but they won't be pursuiting anything worthwhile until damn near endgame.
DKs on the other hand don't give any shits. They'll pursuit anything whenever they want because they have the same speed base as a mercenary. And giving it a positive speed nature ensures it won't get outsped by anything all the way until near endgame, where pegs will finally start doubling them.
Quote:Monks, mages, shamans and even pegs can all aurora the DK, even at its max res of 14, so if your mages can't take magic hits as well as your DK then that's because you didn't build them to take those, not because they don't have the potential to do so.
I have yet to see a monk or mage aurora anything without having a craptastic build. And as far as I've seen, Shamans are probably the only mage class that can manage to do it, barely. I'm talking with E-rank weapons. You'd have to bring a shitty Arctome to have to do it for one specific unit. So why bother?
And even then, I was talking about taking magic hits when comparing those units when they run pursuit builds. Sure, Monk, Mage, Shaman, and Peg Mage may take magic hits slightly better than DKs, but it's like comparing a wet paper bag to a slightly thicker wet paper bag. It won't matter because they (monk, mage, shaman, peg mage) die to the next hit of anything, anyway.
Only thing that matters is lvl 20 and xx/20 builds. Let's nerf armors cause they're OP at low lvls too. DK and friends are fine.
Quote:I have yet to see a monk or mage aurora anything without having a craptastic build. And as far as I've seen, Shamans are probably the only mage class that can manage to do it, barely. I'm talking with E-rank weapons. You'd have to bring a shitty Arctome to have to do it for one specific unit. So why bother?
Why would you need an Arctome? Monks and mages can reach 19 res and shamans hit 18. The Gale and Lunar pegs can actually reach 20 res, so if you're having difficulty outspeeding them you can always use aurora. Of course a standard peg mage build doesn't reach its max res, but if you can't aurora them that means that they probably don't have as many growth points in speed in which case you can easily use pursuit.
Quote:And even then, I was talking about taking magic hits when comparing those units when they run pursuit builds. Sure, Monk, Mage, Shaman, and Peg Mage may take magic hits slightly better than DKs, but it's like comparing a wet paper bag to a slightly thicker wet paper bag. It won't matter because they (monk, mage, shaman, peg mage) die to the next hit of anything, anyway.
Most pursuiter builds die in 2 hits. Sure, if you build your DK the right way it will be able to survive two melee hits, but at the same time it can be ORKOed easily by DT mages. The chance that you get attacked by both a magic and a melee unit is quite big anyway, so is it really that important?
Surprisingly enough monks, mages and shamans all have a max def that is higher than the DKs max res, so unlike the DK they can actually have builds that will always survive two rounds of attacks (barring crits).
(03-30-2015, 01:01 PM)Speedchain Wrote: [ -> ]Why would you need an Arctome? Monks and mages can reach 19 res and shamans hit 18. The Gale and Lunar pegs can actually reach 20 res, so if you're having difficulty outspeeding them you can always use aurora. Of course a standard peg mage build doesn't reach its max res, but if you can't aurora them that means that they probably don't have as many growth points in speed in which case you can easily use pursuit.
So far, I haven't seen a pure aurora peg mage that isn't a lord, but that'd be a something to experiment with. (though it wouldn't work so well since half your auroras may not activate because of your innate avoid) But if you're telling me that Mages and Monks can reach 19, they can't reach it without having to sacrifice survivability or pow, both of which is especially ill-recommended in the tanky metagame that is unpromote play.
Why would you need an arctome for shamans? DKs cap at 14 res. Shamans cap at 18. The person using a DK would be riding a pipe dream if they were to attack with a rlb corruption and not switch it to worm or something. Or de-equip even, if need be. Arctomes are pretty much your only bet to get some decent damage onto them when they do have an e-rank equipped.
Quote:Most pursuiter builds die in 2 hits. Sure, if you build your DK the right way it will be able to survive two melee hits, but at the same time it can be ORKOed easily by DT mages. The chance that you get attacked by both a magic and a melee unit is quite big anyway, so is it really that important?
Surprisingly enough monks, mages and shamans all have a max def that is higher than the DKs max res, so unlike the DK they can actually have builds that will always survive two rounds of attacks (barring crits).
The difference between DK and all the other pursuit mage classes is that DK can survive a magic hit and a physical hit. The other mage classes can't tell the same tale, unless lorded.
Mages can have dual tank capabilities, but they're losing out in pow when doing so (too much speed/luck). And Monks literally cannot function as a DT worth crap. Too low HP, too low Def, too much speed/luck (again), and they'd have to sacrifice loads of pow in order to pull it off, in which case, Templar does a way better job in that regard.
And speaking of templars, Templars and Adepts could be almost put in the same sentence as DKs as far as classes that can pretty much do almost everything and do it better than a lot of other classes. The only difference is, Dark is still the best attacking type in unpromotes.
Quote:Why would you need an arctome for shamans? DKs cap at 14 res. Shamans cap at 18. The person using a DK would be riding a pipe dream if they were to attack with a rlb corruption and not switch it to worm or something. Or de-equip even, if need be. Arctomes are pretty much your only bet to get some decent damage onto them when they do have an e-rank equipped.
A verrine actually deals more damage and is more accurate than using an arctome to aurora a DK that's equipped with a worm.
Quote:The difference between DK and all the other pursuit mage classes is that DK can survive a magic hit and a physical hit. The other mage classes can't tell the same tale, unless lorded.
Depending on the build they might still die to a peg pursuit + mith and only a nihil build will always be able to survive a melee + magic attack.
Shaman [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/15%]: 40.00
POW [0/10%]: 18.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [0/0%]: 11.00
DEF [2/10%]: 15.00
RES [2/5%]: 15.00
LCK [0/0%]: 10.00
Lose one pow and put it in res to survive 2 lunar peg pursuits.
Shaman [Defencive]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/15%]: 40.00
POW [0/0%]: 14.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [/5%]: 14.00
DEF [2/10%]: 15.00
RES [2/10%]: 16.00
LCK [0/0%]: 10.00
Nihil
Survives 2 of everything, barring crits.
Mage [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/15%]: 40.00
POW [0/%]: 14.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [0/5%]: 14.00
DEF [2/15%]: 15.00
RES [2/5%]: 16.00
LCK [0/0%]: 10.00
Nihil
And even a mage can survive a melee + magic hit. You just have to be a little more creative, this build only gets 2RKOed by 2 lunar peg pursuits. You could switch one def to res to survive lunar pursuits and instead die to two mith axes.
The DKs can get some good stats quite easily and because of this people sometimes seem to forget that other units can also get good builds, it often just requires a little more work. DKs are more straightforward/easy to use than a lot of other units, but that doesn't mean that they're extremely overpowered. DKs are arguably better as a generic unit than others, but in my opinion they make a weaker lord.
See my problem with those builds is, you're already gimping your units of either firepower or survivability. And you will need both because it's the difference between getting a good first strike and getting a bad first strike, or none at all. In theory, losing a couple of points may not seem like much, until you run into tanky metagame, where you wish you had capped them.
It's not so much of a problem in promote play because all promote play is about is avoid, avoid, and even more avoid. More enemies are frail as crap, so it's not really the end of the world if you didn't cap pow. But in unpromote play, it's all about bulk, bulk, and more bulk. Tanks are everywhere. DKs. Armors. Mystics. Adepts. Templars. Wyverns. Raiders. You name them. You need every drop of pow you can get, because it's hell of a lot harder to get a good first strike in unpromotes than it is promotes. At least promotes gave you more options to work with.
(04-01-2015, 12:44 AM)Falaflame Wrote: [ -> ]See my problem with those builds is, you're already gimping your units of either firepower or survivability. And you will need both because it's the difference between getting a good first strike and getting a bad first strike, or none at all. In theory, losing a couple of points may not seem like much, until you run into tanky metagame, where you wish you had capped them.
I mainly play unpromo and I don't really have a problem with using lower pow units. If you bring a lot of them into the same battle that might not work out too well, but doesn't that also count for a lot of other types of builds? When used the right way these units definitely have their own advantages.
You can also go DK DT style with the mage classes.
Shaman [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [2/10%]: 38.00
POW [2/0%]: 18.00
SKL [0/0%]: 12.00
SPD [0/0%]: 11.00
DEF [0/10%]: 13.00
RES [2/20%]: 18.00
LCK [0/0%]: 10.00
Quote:It's not so much of a problem in promote play because all promote play is about is avoid, avoid, and even more avoid. More enemies are frail as crap, so it's not really the end of the world if you didn't cap pow. But in unpromote play, it's all about bulk, bulk, and more bulk. Tanks are everywhere. DKs. Armors. Mystics. Adepts. Templars. Wyverns. Raiders. You name them. You need every drop of pow you can get, because it's hell of a lot harder to get a good first strike in unpromotes than it is promotes. At least promotes gave you more options to work with.
There's a lot more to FETO than just the FS and even then low pow units can still finish off a lot of units after they've been attacked by one of your stronger units or soften them up, so that one of your other units doesn't have to take the damage.
About the peg versus DK that you started this thread with. Looking at the lvl 1 stats of lunar vs dk the lunar will almost always be able to either pursuit or aurora the DK. If the DK goes for a high speed build then that means that they probably won't be putting stats in res in which case you can aurora and if they go for a high res build then they probably won't put stats in speed which means that you can pursuit. Without changing anything you'd be able to pursuit the DK at lvl 12 and seeing as how many units don't activate their skills in most situations at lower levels that's not really all that weird.
Dark Kn. [Balanced]
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 18.50
POW [0/0%]: 6.40
SKL [0/0%]: 6.25
SPD [0/0%]: 8.30
DEF [0/0%]: 10.35
RES [0/0%]: 3.20
LCK [0/0%]: 5.25
Lunar Kn. [Balanced]
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 18.50
POW [0/0%]: 5.25
SKL [0/0%]: 6.25
SPD [0/0%]: 10.45
DEF [0/0%]: 5.10
RES [0/0%]: 7.35
LCK [0/0%]: 5.35